I also feel same as Mohammed Hassanali, my co worker Faiza is pakistani and I came to know that very late but nothing changed when I came to know that coz she’s a nice person and in fact that made me more curious to learn the way she thinks and many more things, I love to play with her amazing kids..all four boyz from 6 month to 15 yrs age….they are simply awesome, but they dont know about cricket and they play base ball…one day I taught them basics of cricket …after all we are same ppl and we can live together here….because here we dont have dirty politics …here we dont have borders in between…Nehru wasnt my god and Jinnah wasnt urs…so thr’s no point following them blindly …we are all unique ppl and we should follow our own ideology instead of becoming scape goats of dirty unruly politicians and extremists…..

Hello Ppl

Well there are so many problems and so many solutions also, but nothing is working out..why? because we dont mind our own biz. Seriously we are obstacles in each other’s harmony and progress so now when partition has already happened then we should respect that ideology since we cant un-partition it no matter how hard we try. Things will be much better if we start thinking about our own countries…start loving our own country more instead of wasting time in hating neighbors, anyways we dont do much biz wid each other and how good relations we have personally that’s also very much known. So its better to stop bothering each other and start living in our own world. I do want people to people contacts and good relations but its just not practical…we have come to o far to go back now…only thing possible now is to finally break all ties…seal the borders and seal all issues …no talks not disputes….I know we dont want this either….then what we really want to do

In my last comment I meant Muslim community in India has increased to 20% from partition. Also I forgot to add one point, I strongly condemn godhra killings and I hope justice is delivered and perpetrators go behing bars. Process has started. SC has ordered Special investigation team which has found many high profile ppl guilty and are under arrest while some absconding. But still I know its gonna be very very difficult to obtain complete justice and these r few things that I dont like abt my country. But I accept the mistakes instead of hiding it. We are atleast working and are on right path because road to correction starts with acceptance!

It is strange to see that majority of the bloggers on this forum giving their impression are ofcourse Indians and Pakistanis but settled in countries other than their own.
Why is it that we Indians and Pakistanis have cordial relations when living away from our respective countries in foriegn lands. I’d rather say not just cordial relations but rather getting close enough to even getting married? I myself am the example.
Germany fought 2 world wars. Most of these major wars were fought on the European continent. The sum total of casualties from these two wars only in Europe amounts to about 12 million not counting the injured and maimed which almost double that amount.
I would’nt want to go into details of the past of the Indian sub continent on who was right and who was wrong. Rather, I would just want to argue that if Germany, after these two murderous wars, was crushed and razed to earthby the Allied forces, is again a European economic powerhouse, that other European countries of Allied forces came to terms that, after all, Germany is and will always remain part of Europe, that it has to play its role in the future of Europe. Why can’t we the people of Indian sub-continent, who, just 62 years ago were still the same country, live and work and trade in harmony?
If Europeans can forget their animosity to make Europe again a leading power of the world, why can’t we do the same thing? What is stopping us to do so.
In my opinion, the only thing missing in people of both the countries (three countries in fact now that Bangladesh is also a seperate country)is the lack of education. India has made great strides in that drection and result is quite visible. But my country Pakistan and Bangladesh are lagging way behind and just because of that, all other kinds of problems have found their way. Corrupt politicians and religious fendementalism are a product of the same problem.
The question is how to eradicate this problem and I am ashamed I don’t have a solution to this.
I hope there would be people behing me who would pick up the discussion and try and suggest the soultions to this ever worsening problem without which, acheiving peace will be quite a difficult job.

Dear Pakistanis,

I dont know about the Pak side of the story. But I can tell what majority of the middle class Indians feel about Pak.

Basically majority of them are indifferent about Pak. Our major trading partners are India, China and the West. These countries matter to us and Pak doesnt. The only thing we want is for Pak to stop sending murderers from Let, Jaish e Mohammed etc…

We dont see Pak as a threat. China is the real threat. At the same time it is a big trading partner. Even though China is threat, its a RATIONAL country and is not traversing the path of the self destruction as Pak is doing.

We really dont mind what happens inside Pak but all we want is for you to stop sending terrorists to other nations. I guess that is what USA and west also wants.

Thanks,
Yash.

I have always been a committed secularist in that I do not believe in discriminating against minorities. But when I see the hatred displayed by Indian Hindus against Pakistanis, I’m appalled. I always regretted that my father had migrated to Pakistan in 1947, leaving behind his house and belongings. He always told me that after Partition, Muslims could not feel safe in India. This has been proved by the massacre of Muslims in Gujrat and during communal riots in India (this has never happened in Pakistan after a few incidents in 1947). Recently Varun Gandhi’s threat to Muslims makes me wonder if there is such a thing as a secular Indian Hindu. By the way, Pakistani Hindus are treated well by the Muslims (my own family doctor is a Sindhi Hindu). As far as the disputes between India and Pakistan are concerned, relations have been exacerbated mostly by India. Invasion of J&K, Junagadh, Hyderabad, blocking of river water in 1948 and again last year, massing of troops on the border with threats of invasion, maintaining 13 consulates in Afghanistan (with which it has no border) to destabilize Pakistan. In fact, if I were an Indian, I would wonder why the Indian government spends so much money on the thirteen Afghan consulates or sending rockets to the moon and not doing anything to feed the 836 million hungry Indians who live on Rs. 20 (40 U.S. cents) per day!

Its all Politics.
Politics of Power and Religion.
How to solve INDO-PAK problem ! ?
Have confidence building measures, make people of each others country trust in each other, just remove the hate , which would remove the borders, and the animosity, if people in south asia can freely travel and have a common currency all other issues including Kashmir Issue would become fictitious.

Usman Khan,
It is nice to communicate with you.
Even though I do not agree to some of your points.

It is not like there is one bad thing and if that is stopped everything could be good. Sometimes a single event can change the outcome and I agree with that.

But in my opinion it is not a single event, it is more of a wave after wave after wave type phenomenon.

Once a politician or polcitical party is formed with an idealogy, that they cannot live with someone,,, it takes a long time to turn the tide.

Usually it doesnt happen in one’s lifetime.
With Jinnah claiming Muslims and Hindu’s cannot live together, even he or someone from Congress compromised, it would have been at best a temporary phenomenon.

That idea of exclusion or purity or Ummah is so powerful that it has to run its course. It is still going on and it may probably take another 50yrs or more. The underlying criteria is, we are different or we are better, or we are right and the only way, or….some level of superiority and the exclusion which comes with it.

So no wonder, Pakistan thought only Urdu should be the official language. So to maintain that exclusivity, they have to make Bengali speaking muslims suffer and become independant.

It is the opposite of live/letlive and respect each other philosophy.

So please quote those papers which are de-classified and if there are available on the net. Writing about events 60-70yrs is old. If the current writers cannot do justice for events which happened in 1971 and discuss rationally why India did not absorb East Pakistan, i do not really beleive in their writing.

What would you say about 1971 and not absorbing Bangladesh. For me, it is an accepted issue, and India did not want to revisit that again and move forward.
It is not the same circumstances or the leaders who were in in 1940’s and 1970’s.
But the underlying philosophy is acceptance and moving forward.

Even if Congress accepted partition reluctanly or eagerly in 1947, the situation is far different in 1971.

There is no single strategy that works in all situations. If pakistan wants the most difficult issue to be resolved firt, that is their approach. In some situations people cannot get over the important facts and it is of utmost importance.

So be it.

For India and China, there are some unresolved border issues, but they are doing trade to the extent of $50Billion.

But for Pakistan if they are expecting some other issue to be resolved, let us agree to be neutral.

We should give up the possibility of being friendly neighbors. If we cannot be neutral and indifferent, how can we be friendly.

There is no universal rule which says, neighbors have to be your friends.
In many big cities, as long as you have neutral neighbors that is good enough.

well..well.i think our future generations will curse us,like in hiroshima and nagasaki.like in auschwitz(germany) and world wars.
if we won’t solve kashmeer issue peacefully mark my words,future will hold this era responsible for a future nuke war between india and pakistan.
so,forget all the atrocities,acknowledge the fact that the LOC will remain intact for years to come.what’s there at the moment is the respective parts(except aksai chin).
so,plz india and pakistan,meet with open hearts and thoughts.
the world take a great pleasure when india and pakistan go bickering woth each other.
people of pakistan must not morally,financially and politically support the jehadis who try to spread enmosity.
it is not like that india and pakistan have a lot of cultural differnces.differences is of beliefs and hearts.

Dear Ram,

Even though your comment on jinnah being a genius, brought a silly smile to my face you are so wrong.

I am a Muslim living in India and am extremely happy. Besides my family I still have not come across one muslim who would rather be in Pakistan.

I wish you had read the article of MJ Akbar in the Sunday Times last week where he was mentioning about him giving a lecture to a group of Muslim student and he told them all of how grateful they should be to their respective families for not crossing over the border when they had the chance.

We love India and can very easily die for India.

Regards,
Imran.

i m lives in Matiari,Sindh,Pakistan,i m great supporters of Pakistan India friendship,we must fight against poor people’s prblems,deseases and so many things,i m suppose to be the biggest critic and show biz journalist of sindhi,i have written so much on bollywood also,i m enclopedia of bollywood,love to write on movies,music,fashion,now let me tell u that some time ago it was my routine that daily i write so many things on indya website,but suddenly mumbai balst happen and they banned me to write because i m pakistani,i was writing just on show biz,fashion and social issues,so it was great shocking for me,because tow months ago i also got offer to write for Rekha’s personal website, and iwrote for it,because Rekha Ji is my fav film star,now let us make decision means bot sides common people that why we live in always in a tension that we r enemies,we have same colour,same blood,same religions,hindus are also living in pakistan and muslims r also lives in india,so plz just think abt our kids,plz u must make them followers of Nusrat Fateh Ali and Lata ji,love for all hate for none,and make friendship so duarable,get effort for that

Guys, I’m an Indian settled in the US.

1) Thanks to dawn.com for setting up this blog.

2) Thanks to the younger folks on this blog for putting together progressive thoughts about the FUTURE of our 2 countries.

3) Thanks to technology for making borders and “visa’s” irrelevant.

It’s funny….with all of these “issues” we “fret” over most of us on this blog weren’t even born then.

So why the heck would we be taking on dirty baggage from the PAST when we’ve got a fantastic FUTURE to look forward to.

Some of my best friends in the US through college and professional life have been Pakistani’s.

Go outside of India or Pakistan and you’ll see how Indians and Pakistani’s blend in like aloo and gobi in a nice hot curry….LOL….it’s true.

As Raj say’s…

What can be done by our generation to facilitate better relations between our countries (not just India/ Pakistan but globally) – create wealth, prosperity, progress, better health care and education for our people ?

Can we focus on the future and matters that create peace, tolerance and goodwill among mankind ?

Let

India Pakistan Blunders
India and Pakistan got independence in 1947 from colonial rule of England. Interestingly both countries have very cordial relations with their colonizer.
Both countries are following extreme path for destruction of each other on the basis of religious ideologies and pity matters of past which could be solved easily but never tried to solve them. Both nations have large population and series of problems but they have opt to fight with each other.
Political moods of both countries based on ethnic, religious and linguistic rivalries and being maintained from first day of freedom. It was not freedom of people but it was change of masters. Rulers with local faces and English policies. Every body have to think on these problems and find sustainable solutions

Hameedullah
Anthropologist
Larkana

I feel Mr. Jinnah, did a fantastic job of creating an Islamic state (Pakistan), where all muslims can live in peace and harmony.

In India 130 million Muslims are not happy, another 160 million Muslims, would have sufferred un-necessarily, jinnah was a genius.

RT

I read some posts, this is a nice debate, sometimes a little emotional and sentimental too. But it is an eye opener. Let Muslims be, let Hindus be, and let Sikhs and Christians be. Demented acts of past committed by fanatic rulers ought not to be made the basis of persecution of somebody today. By behaving with civility we can let all including minorities understand the true character of the majority. Like someone once said, sabko apana deen mubarak. India is secular, ought to remain so. We can’t become a mirror image of “Muslim” Pakistan. There are commonalities between us, but differences too. And we can live together despite differences in a democratic setup. India gets respect despite being poor on account of such record. Let us never allow anyone poison our society. Bye the way, how many readers believe Varun Gandhi has remembered even one shloka of Srimadbhagwad Gita in whose name he was announcing his intention to cut some imagined enemy’s hands (or heads or whatever).Imprortant people have greater responsibility to choose what they say.The followers usually accept such utterances mindlessly, and lower the level of discourse. Thanks.

Sam, strange argument: If one bad thing had been prevented from happening, another bad thing would have happened. So, what’s the point trying to prevent it!

Even as late as 1946, there was agreement on Cabinet Mission Plan no matter how ‘reluctantly’. All the professor is recommending is that we all read a bit of history beyond the respective official versions. Also, since all the British India Office papers have been unclassified since 1977, under the 30 year rule, it behoves any true student of history to refresh their knowledge/views. That’s all.

Ayesha Jalal, H M Seervai, Rajmohan Gandhi.. are just some of the authors who have included research on these papers in their books. What their facts and they themselves seem to suggest is that the AIC preferred Partition to the Cabinet Mission Plan (and that is why it torpedoed it by the underhanded means of Nehru’s press conference of 10 July 1946). So your Bangladesh example merely claims/confirms that the AIC still preferred Partition even in 1971. What’s new?

Prof, I agree.. it’s stupid to expect the most difficult issue to be resolved first. If the two countries start with areas of least difficulty first.. they might find that by the time they get to addressing Kashmir, it would have become a much simpler problem.. with the increasing mutual confidence, co-operation and overlapping interests.

Hai guys my name is imran living in nyc i used to go to dawn website just for news but yesterday some how i clicked this block and since then i am so happy ans so sad so happy because its really good to hear my indian brothers and sisters and to unhappy becoz we youngsters have to do something no matter what happens b/w Govt we should called each other one nation which should be named the FUTURE.i live here in usa one of my very best frinds r from India what we feel that we brothers left each other but we finally met and JUB WE MET its like the best DOSTANA ever so people living in india and pakistan especially youngsters i dont wana talk to my elders because today if they thought the way we r thinking today in this forum we could have been in a much better position plz claan your minds with Ariel or Nirma what ever but plz do so

Salam Namsata to all

Kumar,
How do you know if Jinnah stayed with congress that partition would not have happened.

There could have been another muslim politician who could have raised the partition.

By staying in Congress Jinnah could have become another Maulana Azad.

While what you say is a possibility, (or a firm reality in your opinion) there could have been many other outcomes than what would you state as a firm act.

Anyway i am not into this partition or no partition.

India accepted partition.
If it did not accept partition, it could have annexed Bangladesh and undo the partition partially.

It had the choice.
If you are a historian, please do write an article why india did not annex Bangladesh.
What was the thinking and practical issues.

Since this happened in 1971, there are still people who are living who were involved with that decisions.

This is still fresh, and you can have interviews with Generals and Politicians.

The expressions of Abdul Hai and Pranav reflect realistic and utopian attitudes respectively. We need to learn to gravitate from the real to the ideal / aspirational.

While I agree with the concept of oneness of all human-kind & the whole world being one family; we also need to accept that it is the craving for distinctive cultural identity further reinforced by dimensions of geography, language, religion, ethnicity etc. led to the modern nation-states. Hence, Pakistan and Bangladesh are real.

Let us not blame the British or presently the Americans for the festering wounds of this region. The geo-politics do not care for either the peoples affected or for the future consequences.

Let’s not behave like infamous Bourbons – who learnt nothing and forgot nothing! We need to dispassionately learn from the past but not stay anchored to it. History helps us to avoid past follies while we need to resolutely march to build a robust future.
Had Conservative Churchill continued to be in power post the II World War, our freedom would have got delayed because most of the native princes wanted the British to stay!

Had Quaid-e-Azam Jinnah (title was bestowed by Gandhi), who was the contemporary of GK Gokhale (whom Gandhi called his mentor) been given his due position in Congress, instead of passing on the Indian national Congress (INC) stewardship from Motilal to Jawaharlal Nehru with the blessings of Gandhi (Genesis of Gandhi-Nehru Dynasty), the partition wouldn’t have happened! We all need to learn dispassionately from unbiased history

It is strange termoil going on in pakistan, the newspapers are censored. Pakistan is still looking for west for funds. When Pakistan will learn to clear it own mess. Give it nationals a repected dignified life. What I see is misseries, astrosties done by the govt. or the taliban, on innocent woemn and children. I only see people blaming Israel for killing Palestinians but who will be accounted for this worst human rights tragedy done by there own people. Shamelesslty looked and not uttering a word by any religiuos party to stop it, in Islam we fight for respect and honour. In Pakistan they have lost all of it, a bank rupted,shame and disgraced nation.

Abdul Hai,
Look at Americans and Japanese.
After so many americans killed and inspite of atomic bomb, Japanese are able to work cordially and in a highly business oriented fashion with Americans.

They have overcome a lot of hard feelings and move forward.

Compare to that, why cant muslims in pakistan go forward.

India and china are doing lot of trade.
So you just cannot blame india.

But something doesnt work out between india and pak.

So may be the good thing, let us agree to be neutral neighbors.

Forty years back, I went to England as a graduate student from Pakistan. Until then I have never met an Indian. During my first day at the University, I met a fellow graduate student and shook his hand. I still rememeber the guilty feeling I had a that time for days of having committed a sin by being cordial to an Indian. Over the years I have learnt that there was nothing wrong and we both Indians and Pakistanis are brain washed by the media and government.

I always wonder if a graduate student be so biased, what about the uneducated villagers in both countries. I believe that both governments should allow access and visas to citizens of other to visit and learn first hand about each other. This communication will help reduce the tension and bad feelings.

I firmly believe a stable Pakistan will always be a very good neighbour to India.

I pray to god for the same I sincereley wish Pakistan should do well in Business & Education.

I do not why we guys fight,if you just go back to the history the highest human displacement & killings were in this continent in 1947.Even during Muslim rule they never separated hindus & muslims.

Partition was designed by Britishers soighting hindu s & Muslims keep on fighting and 1lac Britishers were resued safely from this subcontinent(This job was given to Lord Mount Baten which he did very professionaly)

Now USA is doing the same dividing us and we are prey to it.

My brothers in Pakistan and India I request all of you lets go in the progress path everything will be fine.

I firmly believe this going to happen so that we can also think and go to Karachi & lahore for Holidays and shopping same will be done by our brothers & sisters from across the borders.

Pranav – New Delhi

Hello ALL!

Been able to go through most comments posted here and they represent distinct Indian or Pakistani perspectives. Few of them do show sensitivity and perceptiveness regarding each others’ concerns.

Keenness of Noor to break with the past that was underlined by fear, doubt and hate (-ve attitude activators) move forward in the 21st Cen. using faith, hope & love or friendship (+ve AA) by leveraging strngths of each other is only the way forward.

Anchoring progress to the resolution of the Kashmir-issue is absolutely myopic. Let us Build on areas of symbiotic strength and together we can work towards an enduring win-win agreement agreement pleasing to all.

Best Regards

K–>

What is this obsession for Kashmir by pakistanis.

If Kashmir has to be divided, make it into 3 parts area wise.

One part goes to Pakistan
One part goes to Bangladesh.
One part goes to India

So Pakistan already got it’s part.

Bangladesh gave up it’s part, and Bangladesh is not asking it to be given to Pakistan. If needed Bangladesh may let india take their part, in gratitude for liberating them from Punjabi army.

India got it’s part.

So if this has to be “renegotiated” let us involve bangladesh.

Meanwhile let us get what china occupied.

The articel in todays addition of DAWN about”good buy cricket, hello gulli danda”. It is a very good article an eye opener for us non Pakistanis that still there are good writers who dare to write against the barberism on there own people doen by there own people (islamic fundamentalist). At least there are some people writing real news rather blaming for there all problems to India or west.

I see most of the comments are from non Pakistanis who are writing or visiting this blog, what happened to the other half of the arrangement i.e. Pakistan. Is this blog meant for outsiders only or are Pakistanis not interested to read or write there views for the world to know.

Hi Mukul – Hello Rehan:

Been following this blog since the day-before. Found the comments to be insigtful, interesting, intriguing and some inspiring too. Shall participate regularly.

Best Regards

Kumaraguru

@Thakur.
I appreciate your sincere replies.
Visit the site linked below, (I myself discovered it recently by accident).
Feel free to browse around a while and then give an honest opinion as to what you think of the Indian muslim community.

Regards.

http://indianmuslims.in/

For Adil Razvi …
Tribute to Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan ,
Malang Baba , Bullae Shah , Kabir Saheb , Ajmer Shariff and the whole Sufi Movement

Adil I can not agree more to your observations regarding the Wahabis/hardliners.
I have seen videos on utube about hypocrisy of these fanatics and they are there on display for everyone.
In one video some fanatics are dancing like mad while some clerics are singing something on mike.
In another video a young journalist asks a maulvee who is a scholar on holy books and arabic language regarding what he has to say about beauty contests that don’t even happen on soil of pures. The response is ridiculous if not disgusting. My question is why do these journalist go to seek opinions of these fools? Why should they be given importance ? I dont think they matter. But it is the convenience of media to feed masses with rutt. Media has stooped too low..it looks to me.
On the other end of the bandwidth are folks like late Shri Nusrat Fateh Ali. When a friend of mine made me listen to a Qawalee titled ‘Tum ek Gorakhdha Hoe’ I experienced what they call a Satori an spiritual upliftment…I was in tears …tears not of joy …not of pain…but tears of understanding. I reflected on it. And I can say that if a musician had sung anything like that here in India it would have been a Huge Scandal. Here Muslims are so sensitive that they would not have tolerated such challenging ideas. I thought because in Pakistan muslims are in majority they can take it in their stride. Six years have gone since then and now I hear that Music is sin there now. There is mass burning of media by hajis and ghajis. And today this bombing of a Sufi Shrine. Defacing of Budha’s murals. There is no nadir of this it seems. It seems to be an endless pit. But this is my experience …we have to loose something before we realize the worth of it. I am sure that after this wave of hatred and terror a new wave of Sufis love music and fakkadpan would sweep right from kabul to khaiber pass to wagha border. I see no reason why it should stop there…and not blow to the planes of ganges.

I am not Gautam, but I will still respond to the 2 questions raised by Gorki.

1. How are the minorities of present day India (or any other peoples of any country of the world) responsible for the atrocities committed by demented rulers in the centuries in the past?
- They are not. And that is the reason they should not identify themselves as the heirs of those rulers. The reality is that many do and refuse to align with the reality of a multi-cultural pluralistic democracy. And that is the cause of many conflicts in the sub-continent.

2. When he calls Pakistan a leper state, does he imply by extention all Muslims are thus; then what does he have to say to 130 million of his countrymen, most of whom are as Indian as Gautam? Specifically what does he have to say to the countless martyrs of the Republic of India who are not Hindus like him?
-We have to say that anybody irrespective of his religion or anything else (such as caste, class, company, school) has his first duty to the humanity, and the next to the nation. And if you see your nation as doing disservice to humanity, you need to stand against it. How many Pakistanis will? Have?
And if you see another nation harming your nation, should you be on the enemy side just because many in that nation happen to be your co-religionists? Those who are not, very good and god bless them. But those who are, and are supporting terror activities in their own country, against their own countrymen, do they not deserve to be fired with bullets?

Gautam,
Your postings are inspiring. I would like to initiate a dialog with you. Please let me know how can I reach you ?

well what a disgrace to cricket……enough is enough…why not world calls pakistan a terrorist state…rather declares it. on the other hand the newly elected govt should root out this terrorism and than show the world what they can do. Simply other pakistanis living in other countries can put their head above shoulders but right now it is a great shame……sorry to say.

Hello All,

I am an American citizen born and raised in India. Pakistan has so much talent, just a few years of good governance will make a huge difference. India, has so many internal problems such as corruption, Naxalites, Fanatism that they should look to a stable and prosperous neighbor. Looks like both countries have no choice but to live together in peace. Countries like USA, France, Germany have all butchered each other in millions and lives together after. Why not India and Pakistan?

Ragu

We in Pakistan need to stop deluding ourselves by identifying ourselves with the Arabs and wahhabi Islam and openly admit our close cultural ties with India. Live and let live. Now this should open the pandoras box!

We Indians dont bother about what others says or what color others paint on us we have an unity in differentiality(more than- 84 languages,6 religions,500 tribes) and we have unity .In bad dreams too we dont think india government will fail, ie what we are ..Thanks to indian milatary forces who didnt take control of country anytime(they too believe in democracy and committment to nation)….Basic problem of pakistan is they didnt have a good democracy and disciplined milatary forcea so first trust in democracy and build a committed and disciplined milatary moreover be confident this is the only way yo build the nation well

Pavan – The green is from Indian Flag dude!
Gorki – Good take on Gautam’s diatribe. Exactly how I felt.
Gautam – Good writing skills man! Please let go a bit of the hatred please & you will be better for it!
Rehan & Mukul – Good exchanges!

Why are the North Eastern India states painted green? All Indians should ban this blog until it is reverted back to SAFFRON. Thanks.

Hi ,
In any society and country no matter what when and where, there are two sort of people.
Providers and consumers. Influencers and influenced. workers and controllers. Creator and interpretors. If people in 2nd category increase over a threshold trouble starts.
Let us ask why was zulfikaar and now Benazir were martyred? For the simple reason she understood the design of 2nd category and plight of first type. And she had capacity to change things. So she had to go.
A rebel in my opinion is not the one who shouts and brings revolution. A rebel is one who understands and changes himself/herself. This system / society /setup might not change, atleast I can . This changing self is the true rebel.
Now coming to pakistan. For past two weeks I have been reading articles watching various documentaries on pakistan. I feel there is overemphasis on religion. What is missing is true religiousness. The difference is huge but subtle. Who thinks that one can be a good muslim but a bad human being ? I give two hurrahs if I am a hindu a muslim or a christian or jew or whatever. That is immaterial. Whether I pray 5 times , how many rituals I follow, how many times I have read a holybook. Am I a scholar on kuran or bible. Can I sound intellectual …can I argue on theology or anthropology …is immaterial. What matters to me ( and hope should matter to anyone ) is what sort of individual I am. What I contributed to myelf and others.
And for that I dont need religion just an attitude of being religious. Some call it love …some say it is compassion. And why would allaha or god need sacrifices from me. My sacrifices are never going to meet any of his/her objectives. Allaha can meet its objectives. It doesnt need an azahar mehasud or baitullaha for same.
my regards to all fanatics …
who speak like warmongers day in day out. We have a saying close to the temple far from the god. It shud be translated as close to the mosque far from allaha.
regards
alok etc

Lets not forget the history. Most Muslims in India and Pakistan are converts. They did not come from some other place. They are sons and daughters of the land as much as Hindus, sikhs, or Christians are. If one looks beyond the colored eyes of religion, there are more things in common between Indians and Pakistanis than differences. It just shows that how much religions divide us than bring us closer.

For me religion is a personal choice. The world will be better served if religion is kept at a personal level not let it interfere when dealing with others.

I feel the problem with Pakistani muslims is they always try to look at India through the eyes of religion.

India is always culturally diversified with all religions. (Hindus, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Parsis, Jainists etc.,) India has changed a lot especially in the last 25 years with lot of economic prospects and lifestyles.

Pakistani people are still perceiving India from what they know as 50 years back history. When you focus on trade, economy, eliminating terrorism etc., all other things like religion, differences, disputes etc., would automatically fall in place.

It appears like Muslims are always fighting in every part of the world be it within their subgroups (or) between religions & only for the cause of RELIGION. Islam cannot be blamed & the people’s perceptions are to be blamed.

Once people take out religion out of their minds while dealing with trade, economy, business prospects etc., all South Asian countries will flourish;

And religion will not create an issue as it’s individual’s right, faith and belief to practice a religion of their choice. And others should learn to respect their faith. Muslims/Arabs always think that Allah should be treated with respect by whole world while they dont care to value other’s faith. That perception should change in people’s minds.

I think it’s high time, Pakistan discard it’s obsession with Kashmir and stop using it as an excuse to encourage extremism & terrorism on it’s soil.

Hasn’t the Kashmir issue cost Pakistan enough already? 3 costly wars, heavy defense spending leading to a weak economy, a weak democracy which allows the powerful military to upstage Democratically elected Governments, growth of extremism, violence & terrorism on it’s soil, bad relations with the neighbor from whom Pakistan can gain a lot.

I think, it can be argued that if it weren’t for the Kashmir issue, Pakistan would be a prosperous, tolerant & a vibrant Democratic country today.

If Pakistan doesn’t discard the Kashmir issue & concentrate on the lethal issues, it’s facing today, I’m afraid, it won’t survive.

Hi!! I feel very sorry and sad for the cricket loving people of Pakistan after what happened in Lahore yesterday.

What you guys talk is meaningful. But now the fundamentalist forces in Pakistan calling the shots especially after this Sharia law episode.

Democracy is there in India, but Pakistan is moving up in the list of failed states.

I am neither a Indian nor a Pakistani.

I said what I feel.

I read the various posts with interest. First of all I would like to commend who ever thought of having this cross border chit chat at the Dawn.
In the modern ever connected world, we can not afford to have a civil dialogue especially with those whom we may have a difference of opinion.
Secondly I appreciate the friendly and civil nature of most people commenting on this blog, barring some exceptions.
Last, I would like to reply to a specific post by Gautam, who wrote a rather long piece from a supposedly Indian point of view. I must say that Gautam has done his homework and without going into specific details, I agree with most (not all) of his observations as far as accuracy of historical facts are concerned.
I however have a serious difference with his understanding of what India represents to most Indians today.
The republic of India represents a population of 1 billion which includes people of every faith known to mankind and includes 130 million muslims.
Gautam starts out as a reasonable writer trying to explain the burden of historical injustices heaped upon the Hindus of India and slowly deteriorates into extreme of racist hatred that sullies the good name of the Indian republic.
I don’t want to get into a long rebuttal but want to make two points only, in the form of rhetorical questions.
1. How are the minorities of present day India (or any other peoples of any country of the world) responsible for the atrocities committed by demented rulers in the centuries in the past?
2. When he calls Pakistan a leper state, does he imply by extention all Muslims are thus; then what does he have to say to 130 million of his countrymen, most of whom are as Indian as Gautam? Specifically what does he have to say to the countless martyrs of the Republic of India who are not Hindus like him?
I am an Indian like Gautam, and believe in the Republic founded by giants like Nehru, Gandhi, Azad and Patel. It was founded with the blood of thousands of matyrs who gave their lives, marched proudly in the ranks of the INA and endured long prison terms in the dungeons of Andaman. All these were Indians. With their blood and their sacrifices they washed away any sense of shame or humiliation that may have come from acts of past invaders.
As an Indian, I do not see any humiliation in structures of brick and mortar built in one place or another, only shame comes when any Indian is denied justice; whether a Kashmiri pandit ejected from his home by terrorists or a Muslim burnt alive in Gujrat.
My comparision is not what happened or happens to minorities in Pakistan or other countries, but what we promised ourselves on that midnight hour in 1947; to strive to wipe every tear from every eye.
Gautam; you seem like a person who loves India, you should learn to love Indians.

I feel that the issues between India and Pakistan can be addressed point wise.

1. Strategically Kashmir is a problem. The wishes of Kashmir not withstanding, it would be suicidal for the Indian Army to withdraw from Kashmir vis-a-vis China. Hence, a more pragmatic approach would be to reconcile by granting a degree of autonomy on both sides of the LoC while maintaining an armed presence on the borders and borders alone. I just realised Kashmir holds India Pakistan together like some critical and inseperable organ holds conjoined twins.

This is for Mr. Haleel Sarwar, regarding the population of Muslims in India and Pakistan.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13659/

There are responses to all that you have raised, but let us not digress for the sake of constructive discussion.

I implore all to desist from making rhetorical comments and stick to facts. This way we can ensure that something constructive comes out this noble effort.

Let us for a change look inwards and list the problems that you would like to eradicate from your own country.
My top five would be-
1.Corruption.
2.Religious fundamentalism.
3.Poverty.
4.Illiteracy.
5.Unemployment & underemployment.

hey guys. forget the figures. who has mor or less doesnt matter. what matters is that all right thinking men and women want peace, economic stability, and a good future for their children. are we moving in that direction. all this senseless talk of who is better or worse is getting us nowhere. what can we do today to make things beter – is what we ought ot talk about

The bitterness between two parties is so much that this beautiful effort of bringing the two togther has taken such an ugly turmn that now people are using it as a mud slinging contest.
i dont think india and Pakistan need each other. so whats the point of all this talks of friendship here. lets accept it, we can not be togther. Lets turn our focus towards the developement of our countries. perhaps economically developed societies would hate each other less.

God I am sick and tired of this hindu, muslim, kashmir, partition and all the related junk. For once atleast let us try and speak of something which is common to both of us. How about dicussing something on trade relations, business, economy, prosperity of our people and hey how about Indian movies? Let us atleast try for once just for a change. Please !!!!!

Sidhu tells “artificially created borders cannot keep hearts apart. we are the same stock, the same culture. we share a past. and more importantly we share a future”
Well if it is about Punjab, then correct. Otherwise tell what is common between a Punjabi and a Tamil! except humanity

I would ask readers in Pakistan to engage in a thought experiment with a measure of introspection and calmness:

Imagine that you are a devoted Muslim today, a decent human being. Suppose Mecca & Medina are attacked by people who claim to have invaded Saudi Arabia, a land now sacred to you through it religious and cultural associations, for the express purpose of annihilating Islam.

These people proceed to wreak extraordinary desecration on the objects that enjoy your esteem. The Khaneh Kaaba is smashed and its interior content are deliberately broken and further desecrated in particularly vile ways. The exact location of the Kaaba is made the center of the conqueror

this is with regard to what haleel sarwar has to say about muslim population in india, brother there r 13% muslims in india, which means 154 millions muslims live and flourish in india and v dont care if u talk or talked about us ever.

i agree with what talat ansari said. india can’t and never will give up its claim and control over kashmir,bcoz once india does so there would be myriad demands for seperate states, on basis of religion and race.india is already embroiled in counter insurgency in various regions, bowing to the demands of kashmiris(even if it is just) will spell another disintegration of our great nation.

Its sad Pakistan is moving from bad to worse, already they have accepted sharia laws in one of the region and soon its going to engulf the defamed nation.
After all these years of state sponsered terrorism, things seemed to have backfired, this should every sensible pakistani’s rethink the policy of hatred and confrontation. The world is now looking at pakistan and it needs to decide for the better or for the worse !

Replying to a few comments here posted by my misguided counterparts from India.

To Waleed Ali; “It is wishful thinking on your part if you think Pakistani Muslims WANT to speak for you. To all the indian muslims you aren’t and never were the topic of discussion over the evening tea!”

To PRABAL BISWAS; “please check your stats, Pakistan has approx ~ 160 mil muslims and India approx ~ 130 mil. Again a typical case of an Indian fed and nutured on BS”
I have posted a link that should pass your Indian bias filters http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6938090.stm

To vijay; “get your eyes checked, just the Pakistani portion (LOC) is coloured for Pakistan.” Though in my view Kashmir should and will be a part of Pakistan.

To Shakil A. Khan; “first of all its female gender and not sex!”

Being a HINDU i bow my head in temple and Say JAI….and do the same in MASJID as well……I dont mind saying JAI ALLAH.Yes i do….bcuz he is an almighty.We as a human be it HINDU or MUSLIM are too small to represent them. We have not power or bandwith to fight their war.Do you seriousely think that up in the heaven ALLAH OR BHAGWAN will ever have a debate on JIHAD or POOJA…..I dont think so…..

In today’s scenario it is extremely important that religion take a back seat and we change our mindset and work together towards the betterment of the society…. Taliban kind of approach is required in dealing with terrorism and their organisations… i mean all types of human rights violations with the violaters… I am keenly following the happenings in swat and concluded that TALIBAN wants to inject fear in the minds of rest of the pakistan and that is why they are killing Journalists so that the message spread and they win a war without fighting it…. Just see Pakistani president and Prime minister is not feeling safe in their own country. I dont understand the complex MUSLIM society like Punjabi, Pukhton, Sindhi or Baloch but very truly Pakistan is ruled by the MILITARY and rogue Politicians.

artificially created borders cannot keep hearts apart. we are the same stock, the same culture. we share a past. and more importantly we share a future. let us make the future better through a shared common vision of peace and happiness. there is still time. future generations will not forgive us if we fail in this
too much blood has been shed in the name of religion. let us be the drivers of change

One thing which i don’t understand is the why everything between India and Pakistan has to start from Kashmir. As one of the authors said that neither India nor Pakistan can change its neighbour so why not do something which is beneficial like start with trade and setting up business. Like India has quite good auto industry why not expand it to Pakistan likewise Pakistan can setup some of its textile factories in India. This is just one of example there are soo many other opportunities (experienced person may be able to shed more light on this aspect). Currently huge portion of budget is sucked up by armed forces that’s really absurd considering the poverty and infrastructure problem in Pakistan I am not sure about India though. COME ON 60+ YEARS HAVE PASSED. Hopefully hawks on both sides will be defeated someday.

It is courageous on the part of Dawn to strt this blog and address the topic of cross border relations and dialogue. Equally courageous have been contributions by Indians and Pakistanis, hindus and muslims. As an Indian muslim, I respectfully request my Pakistani brothers to stop speaking on my behalf. We are fully capable of taking care of ourselves and our interests. Pakistani intervention is unhelpful, unwarranted and damaging to our community and our interests. We are now politically well established and have a strong voice. We wish to live in India as full Indian cirizens and do not need outside intervention. That only unnecessarily complicates our lives.

I am glad that an open forum has come from Pakistan to let indians also say some thing about them. I live in europe and travelled 3 continents. When ever two south asians meet (Indians & Pakistanis, they talk friendly but the moment the issue of religion or Kashmir comes non of the Pakistani sees fact why or how this situation arise. They link all the problems to hindu and think in India muslims are not having any oppetunity to rise. I keep on reminding them about Khan’s in movies or Abdul kalam as president etc. But in the end thay come to critisie about Babari masjid, it is not possibel for them to see what Indians and the muslim population in India has achieved in India. There are more attaks on Masjid in Pakistan from Shia or Sunny then in India ever happen, before or after partion. Now at least we can hopefully understand each others view. If there is no politics indulged in this open forum.

The statement by President-elect Barack Obama regarding American intervention in Kashmir is his first “foreign policy mistake”, a leading US expert on South Asia said on Tuesday.

A Kashmir initiative by America, however “veiled”, can undermine improving Indo-US ties, Selig S Harrison, director of Asia Program at the Center for International Policy and a senior scholar of the Woodrow Wilson International, said an opinion piece published in The Washington Times.

President Barack Obama has made his first big foreign policy mistake – pledging US intervention in the Kashmir dispute between India and Pakistan,

In an interview to the Time magazine in October last year, Obama had said that Kashmir is a place he wanted to “devote serious diplomatic resources to get a special envoy in there, to figure out a plausible approach”.

Manghirmalani, who specializes in South Asia and East Asia for past 50 years, said Obama would face resistance from not only India, but also Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari.

Whenever there is a talk of India & pakistan Only the Kashmiri issue is voiced By pakistan and why the Paki Mullah fails to Understand that Kashmir can be never given to Pakistan on Religious ground as India Has more Muslims Than Pakistan

I cannot understand why my Pakistani brothers fail to comprehend that there is no solution to Kashmir except status quo and converting LOC to international border albeit an open one. India cannot give up Kashmir. It has carefully consider what happens to us Indian muslims and what happens to north Indian rivers and waters? An independant land-locked Kashmir is not viable: the Chinese would immediately dominate it. A referendum is no longer possible as Pakistani Kashmiris have been displaced by Punjabis and Pundist have been driven out of the valley. Things some time have to stay the way they are.

Please Read the above article to know what exists between indians and pakistanis. Only hatred.

Hi, Came to know about this thru a newspaper. I was invited by Dr Awab in Pakistan to write a guest blog on Indo-Pak Friendship. I did write a guest blog on his website ” Teeth Maestro ” as it is a popular blog in Pakistan. My article was ” The Partition of territory, Not hearts “. It was Published on 3rd Feb, 2009 in Teeth Maestro, as a guest blog. Though dr Awab was most accomodating by inviting me to write, but the the comments i received from pakistanis were not comments, but abuses and foul language, leaving aside one or two sane voices. On seeing the aggressive attitude of Pakistani comments, Indians too retaliated in the same language. I was all the time trying to pacify both of them to calm down and talk logic, but specially Pakistanis were so abusive, full of hatred towards India. Ultimately after receiving approx. 130 comments, i had to withdraw from the blog, when i started getting abused myself from Pakistanis. The hatred towards India is so deep, that they dont want to talk peace atall. I must confess, Dr Awab sent me an email apologising for the attitude of the Pakistani comments. Pakistanis only talk of religion, hatred and exploitation of muslims in India. They dont want to talk on peace. Whatever experience i have had is of deep hatred towards India. Dr Awab, has invited me again yesterday to start a new peace initiative and has created a new blog for that, but i am quite apprehensive, seeing my past experience.

Mukul,

How is it that Indian writers in English, especially those professing a secular/liberal/left outlook, so gratuituously anoint themselves with a magical quality of moral superiority from which they pass judgment on all, including “illiberal India”? How is it that they are so marvellously selective in their judgments? The targeted killings by the Marxists of West Bengal & Kerala invite no opprobrium, although at a conservative guess, they have murdered tens of thousands. I, and many others, are eyewitnesess. Using state machinery & forces to target, intimidate and annihilate any one deems to be an underclass, class enemy, potential opposition etc. is exactly the same as what the Gujarat and Delhi govts are accused of, and rightfully piloried in front ofthe world. But where is Arundotty & her fellow travelers in the other instances as well, as also for the violnt, deliberate ethnic cleansing of the Pandits? [part of a 4 part ethnic cleansing since 1901!]

Why no investigation into what Mehbooba Mufti & Papa Mufti did, burning people just like Janab Jafferi was burnt alive with his family in Ahmedabad? Like Best Bakery? Eyewitnesses in plenty, Hindu & Muslim, including polce drectl involved. So why this imbalance?

Where is YK Alagh here, or when his buddies, the CPIM goons murder with impunity for decades? These so-called liberals arouse my deepest loathing for their VERY SELECTIVE & PARTIAL MORALITY.

For years, the Congress & CPIM brought in Muslims from Bangladesh 1964-recently to swell voting bodies. Now those same people refuse to go back in the border districts where I come from, and have become a creation that is intent upon devouring its masters.

And who is to be blamed? Where are your crowd of liberal activists now, do you cover in ANY SERIOUS DEPTH the terrible tragedy about to unfold in both Bengals in less than a decade?

Beneath this facade of false cheer of bhai-bhai, do you realize the terrible anger gathering force in India? Your tribe of Macauley’s Children are so thoroughly sundered from their roots, that neither do you know, nor care to investigate or search for solutions. It is all about ME ME ME, ask Arundotty, who defiles a name holy in the annals of Indian spirit.

Please read Rajat K Ray, whom I now very well, ndcome back and tell me what this gahering storm is, Vrtra, what are its may heads.

People here speak about Kashmir. Yes, it needs to be addressed, but in-depth by those who choose to understand its history in depth and its place overall in the Indian mind and culture. There needs to be dialogue, which means communication ACROSS A GAP, CHASM.

It’s good that dawn has started something like this but I wonder what purpose it’s going to serve other then make this place more hot & hostile. I don’t believe that people are going to react in calm when sensitive issues are discussed and I already see this blog reaching there. But anyways I wish Dawn all the good luck. And also this new Dawn website is so much better and good looking than the previous one.

Mr. Ardeshir Cowasjee and Ramachandra Guha in live blogging will be REALLY GREAT…………..

Kindly try to bring RAMACHANDRA GUHA from India in live blogging.

He is India’s leading historian with a profound intellect.

Pakistanis will be able to better understand India through Ram Guha.

Both the main participants haven’t touched the core issue – the issue that makes us stand against each other – Kashmir!!!

Given the attitude of both the countries, what do my friends think of a probable solution to this issue, nuisance rather, that has been running for 60 yrs now.

Why dont the leadership of both the countries accept on converting the LOC into an international border?Or give the poor kashmiris what they actually want – make their country completely independent from India and Pakistan??

Leaders of both countries dilly dally when coming to take a strong decision on this. – both of them say that kashmir is an integral part of their countries.

I believe that the people, and the leaders should realise what can be done, considering the ground reality, and then push for a resolution!!!

Thanks dawn for giving me an opportunity to talk to friends on either side of the line!!

Hi,
Just read some of the comments here.. some very emotional stuff from both the parties ( india and pakistan). I think this whole idea of youth from both parties talking to each other, sending artist and writers and journalists as evangelists of peace etc is very romantic but so absurd and impractical at the same times.. How many indians and pakistanis are reading what is being written here by the way.. most of the population in both the countries do not access to basic amenities.. i think we all should first focus on improving the conditions of our lots first… as a starter what we can do at best as of now is minding our own business.

Why is the Indian northeastern states painted in green? As a sane “world citizen” please make the necessary modifications

Thanks,
Ketan

Dear Mahmood,
I am equally shocked to see the entire kashmir included in Pakistan.

well i can

Ah, “the Zia 80s”,,,!! I’m a North American (Canadian) who worked for the Pakistani Foreign Service during the reign of the good General. I take considerable comfort from this civil exchange between Pakistanis and Indians, an exchange which belies the grim mass media reports one has access to over here (the Canadian Broadcasting Corp and BBC World Service notwithstanding). So here’s a relatively uninformed but caring question: what the hell is the deal with Sharia law in beautiful Swat??!! Perhaps if we turned Kashmir into a UNESCO “theme park,” where every inhabitant was paid a better-than-subsistence wage simply to be him/herself, the pressure would be relieved in places like Swat, and ordinary people could return to the business of leading ordinary, coercion-free lives… just a thought….

What can be done by our generation to facilitate better relations between our countries (not just India/ Pakistan but globally) – create wealth, prosperity, progress, better health care and education for our people ? Can we focus on the future and matters that create peace, tolerance and goodwill among makind ? Let’s focus on peace instead of “anti-war”, lets focus on prospertiy instead of “anti-poverty”.

I would like some answers on how “The Secret – The Law Of Attraction” (google it) – can help us accomplish this.

This is a very good blog and thanks to dawn.com, rehan and mukul for facilitating this conversation. Let’s use technology effectively to bridge gaps created by borders. Socio-economic development in my opinion will go a long way in ridding us of most our core problems – poverty, terrorism and extremism. Lets rollup our sleeves and get to work – trade, commerce, science for the good of mankind. Lets focus on the future, our future and a better one for our generations to follow.

That leads to my question – Have any of you guys seen “The Secret” – The Law Of Attraction – (google it if you haven’t) – Do you think those principles can help both countries progress further ?

My comment from today are removed sad to say that, I posted just general inquiry and sugestion.
Can the provider of this forum is also under control of ISI scrutiny or censorship.
why not take mohtrama Asma Jhangir on board to know her views.

Some time back, I read newspaper articles which talk about History curriculum in high schools in Pakistan. It seems that Hinduism is portrayed as a religion of black magic and occult. It also depicts that the Muslim population in India is highly suppressed and under intense pressure from Hindus. Is this true?

India’s history curriculum is much different – actually quite the opposite. We are always told that Muslims and in particular, Mughals contributed to arts and culture in India immensely – which is true, despite the fact that mass conversion and religious cleansing occured during Bakhtiar Khilji’s, Aurengzebs (etc) time – this part is never mentioned. Even today, if you visit many ancient temples in India you find evidence of destruction of statues of our God and Goddesses.

Yet, inspite of this India is a secular land (in principle) and we try under most circumstances to adhere to its requirements. Pakistan chose to be an Islamic state in ‘47. So when masjids in India are demolished we are held to morally higher standards however, there are no human right abuses recorded in Pakistan against minorities – if there are any. I think this is unfair.

Finally I feel, Hindus and Muslims have had their differences and we have fought over it for over a thousand years. Human dignity and sanctity of life are the two most important principles that should guide our nations as neighbors.

Folks, move on the path which ensures the betterment of the people and the nation. Be it the left or right, Islamic or secular. Ensure maximum privileges to the people irrespective of the gender, if you can’t provide equal rights and oppurtunities. Society & laws governing them came after the existance of the humans, so please do think as an human being, then the society and then the nation.

In the movie “Khuda ke liye” ( an impressive movie, no doubt), the brother who comes to USA tells his girlfriend, we have ruled India for last 600 years.

It is quite likely that many otherwise educated Pakistanis have this false sense of superiority over Hindus and Indians. It is utterly idiotic but it may be there.

Pakistanis have to realize that Indians are no different from them. The Muslims did not rule India. Mughals ruled both Hindus and Muslims, who were equally poor.

What is wrong with Pakistan? The world is moving forward, and Pakistan, with out dated
suppression of freedom of female sex with interpretation of Quran by the mullahs,
backward. May god give more common sense to the thinking middle classes of the country.

Here is a small question to both of you : Rehan and Mukul:

26/11 has definitely changed mind set and temperament of people in India , with people to people contact and endless peace process, what have got in return , terrorist attacks and killing of innocent people ,what do the Pakistanis want from us ? Why are they doing this to us ? Is there any solution ?

While it is good to be sentimental, the reality is that Pakistani Generals and ISI have waged a low intensity war of terror against India. It simply has to stop. Most Indians have no interest in invading Pakistan or grabbing its territory or doing harm to its people. How does the ‘aam admi’ in Pakistan feel about India? Does he/she feel that it is fine to launch terrorist attacks on Indian cities?

With due respect, Mukul Kesavan represents the fundamentalist left in India.

Appreciate the effort of the Dawn to bridge the gap between two societies, countries- but it cannot be done by bringing people like Kesavan- you need to bring somebody from mainstream.

As far as Indo-Pak relationship goes- I think it will not be normal till cross border (freedom fighter for Pakistanis, or at least a section of it) stops.

I am shocked to see the map of Bangladesh being included in that of India! It has been 38 years! For God’s sake, try to be a little respectful and realistic.

Hi guys,
I am so happy to see this blog and what I see as a digital bridge between people so divided, yet with so much in common. How have we let a line in the sand seperate us to this extent. How can folks from both sides of this divide supercede our politicians and create sustainable bridges. I hope this blog goes a long way and succeeds where our politicians haven’t.

26/11 has broken the umblical chord if there was any, and it is better if it stays that way, as MJ Akbar says, ‘there was a shared past but there is no shared future.’ The friendship et al is just a Punjabi pasttime at both sides, for rest of india it is just plain nuisance.

It is a great idea and effort by dawn.com to put together a live chat across the borders in the form of live blogging. I am myself a blogger and i believe that blogging can pay dividends in the effort to pull the people of both nations closer. I will be keeping in touch with you guys Rehan and Mukul.

Cheers

I would like India and Pakistan to be one nation and fight poverty together. Unless they are united, we would be spending endlessly for defence.

Its a strange thing that Mukul, especially given the subjects that he writes about, isnt easily able to hop over to Pakistan. But this is good going in the meantime. Bye.

And good luck with Cross-Border Chit Chat – it’s a splendid idea.

Bye.

Thank you Mukul. And Dawn.com.

Neither do I, but maybe we can google it!

I’d just like to thank Dawn.com and specially Rehan for making this chat possible. Now I can plausibly claim that I’ve been to Pakistan!

I dont know what film that is from.

That’s lovely!

I enjoyed it when my father was in the car with me over JJ flyover in Mumbai, an experience which shows a lovely view of the city, humming ‘mein bombay ka babu, naam mera mastana, angrezi dhun main gaaon hindustani gaana’.

Mumbai felt safer to me too but interestingly I felt safer in Damascus than Amman.
In both I travelled solo. (I am of South Asian orgins but my family is from East Africa so, as an aside, langauge also played since I speak Kutchi/Gujerat.)

Contrariwise (perhaps this is a comment on how cities change) my mother who taught Physics in Lahore in the late 1930s after studying in Delhi, Banaras and Allahabad, always said that Lahore seemed to her the first truly cosmopolitan city she had encountered in the sub-continent. She used to speak of the freedom she had of the city, the fact that she learnt how to cycle there without self-consciousness…

Anar’s comment: not knowing what Karachi’s and Lahore’s traffic looks like, I hesitate to say anything except that Mumbai for a Delhi-wallah like me seems a very different city. My wife who used to be a banker and spent time in Bombay as a visitor always spoke of her sense of emancipation in public places like bars in Bombay. She felt safe there, she said, and not stared at, unlike Delhi which though a little better now, is still very violent vis-a-vis women.

On my first meeting Mukul he looked like a KGS (Karachi Grammar School) boy, but a novelist and sitting in IIC Library, which really has no equivalent here, rather than at Citibank, Karachi. So not an entitled businessman exactly.

I’ll just mention novel in English translation that I liked. Its Abdullah Hussein’s self translation of Udaas Naslein into The Weary Generations. The Weary Generations as a novel to be read in English should really receive a lot more atttention.

And I’m delighted that Rehan liked Looking Through Glass. I’m even prepared to forgive him for describing me in a long ago interview, published in Dawn I think, as someone who looked less like a writer and more like an entitled businessman!

I’d say Arundhati Roy’s early essays, Amitav Ghosh’s collection of journalism which in India is published as ‘The Imam and the Indian’ and in America under some other name, Ram Guha’s history of the Indian Republic, India after Gandhi, these would be my choices…

Vijayan has near-iconic status as an Indian novelist and he was a brilliant cartoonist as well.

I say this behind Mukul’s back, I really like his novel Looking Through Glass, more than Shadow Lines. In my first trips to Delhi I used to look up fiction writers, including those not writing in English. For some reason O V Vijayan had a big impact on me in an American liberal arts college, and was glad to meet him in Delhi.

Rehan, in India I’d say Khilnani’s Idea of India though technically that would be older than this decade since it was published in 1997; Ram Guha’s wonderful social history of Indian cricket ‘A Corner of a Foreign Field’; Maximum City by Suketu Mehta, Scarred (on the Gujarat pogrom) by Dionne Bunsha*

Pundits from Pakistan by Rahul Bhattacharya, a wonderful book on Indo-Pak cricket, and much more.

The Pak/India split re: women on the street made me think of the difference between Amman and Damascus with Amman being like Mumbai/Delhi and Damascus like Karachi/Lahore.

So Lucky Jim by Kingsley Amis, The War of the End of the World by Mario Vargas Lhosa, Beloved by Toni Morrison, The Tin Drum by Gunter Grass; Midnight’s Children by Salman Rushdie, War and Peace, Tolstoy (which must be uncontroversially the greatest novel ever written), P.G. Wodehouse (lots of), Georgette Heyer (on account of older female cousins when I was of an impressionable age!), Adha Gaon (Rahi Masoom Reza), Sea of Poppies by Amitav Ghosh, lots of stuff. I could go on but who would want to know!

Mukul, what are the non-fiction writers that you are noticing Indian or otherwise, especially as it seems to me that this was a decade where the non-fictional world has been crazier than anything that could be made up.

I can tell you the novels I’m keen on, because you often like a single book by an author, not necessarily his ouevre.

Hi. I

I agree with Mukul on the north-south axis, thats my experience too.

Nehar, I’m not sure I’m competent to comment on this because I have no first-hand experience of Pakistan. I can say, though, that I feel something of your exhilaration when, as someone living in Delhi, I got to Madras or Bangalore or Hyderabad, where you have ten times as many women driving two wheelers down the road than you have in Delhi. So perhaps the difference isn’t a national one so much as a regional one: south-south asia as publicly female friendly versus north-south asia which is much less kind to women.

In response to Nehar Bundukwalla:

It’s true that the first thing that hits me when I cross the border on foot and get to Amritsar from Lahore is the aunties on their scooters. On the other hand, I hate that expression, but nevertheless in Karachi where I have spent a lot of time this winter I am struck by the number of working women everywhere, including waiting for public transportation. Also the numbers of couples in public parks all over, but I am particularly sensitive to that as I am unable to recover from the Zia 80s.

Mukul Kesavan and Rehan Ansari will resume their coversation shortly.

I wish I had followed Advaniji to Karachi, after which trip he gave a speech about Jinnah being a great leader. I have a feeling that in Karachi he realized that as the father of a rath yatra he could also turn a new leaf and become Nehruvian. As it so happened he came by DNA offices soon after his Karachi visit, and spoke glowingly about his reception here.

I am of South Asian origin but resident in the US for the last two decades. During a recent trip to India and Pakistan I was extremely gratified to notice a massive increase in female participation in BOTH countries. Women have made massive inroads into higher education, and are steadily increasing their presence in the work place.

One major difference, however, is the female presence on the streets. Indian cities are full of young women travelling on motorcycles. I was surprised that I didn

India’s history over the last twenty five years is full of ‘illiberal’ episodes. There have been pogroms against Sikhs in Delhi in 1984 and against Muslims in 1992 and then in Gujarat. Does the fact of a secular constitution console those who died in the violence? No, clearly not. But does it make the struggle against chauvinism and a majoritarian politics more robust? Absolutely.

But it is constitutionally, a Jewish state. So every Israeli liberal has to deal with the fact that the right in Israel can always point to Israel’s constitution and say, that’s why we were established.

If you cut the cake of India in idiosyncratic but personal sizes. Sometimes an event like the Mumbai blast trials, which naturally had something to do with the law, as well as the majoritarian sentiment, were an ugly spectacle, I wouldnt want any ‘liberal’ from Pakistan watching it, all the accused rioters go free, all the bomb blast accused go to jail.

Think of Israel as a liberal democracy. It has the institutional forms: universal suffrage, a supreme court, a constitution, regular elections etc.

Alex’s question is a great question. In fact it’s THE great question.

The short answer is, yes.

Indian liberals, in the course arguing against Hindu chauvinists will routinely denounce the idea of a state being owned by a proprietary community.

This can lead to very difficult conversations when Indian and Pakistani liberals argue because the Indian liberal, without realizing it, begins to sound hectoring.

So when I’m arguing against a bigot or a majoritarian or a fascist, I know that the preamble of the constitution is on my side. Rhetorically, I always have the political advantage.

I think the equivalent legitimizing statement for Pakistani liberals would be Jinnah’s famous constituent assembly address where he declared the state had no interest in the faith of its citizens.

Mukul, does it make a difference if the constitution is more ‘liberal’ if the people aren’t?

The difference in the circumstances of Pakistani and Indian liberals is that in India, however resurgent majoritarian Hindus might be and however beleaguered liberals might feel, all the best lines in the Republic’s founding document, the constitution, were written for us.

This business of being liberal is interesting. In India, being liberal generally means being pluralist and ’secular’. I use scare quotes because the Indian construction of secularism is different from the Western distinction between church and state.

And I’m sure in Pakistan, being liberal means much the same thing.

I have also wondered about the reaction to the Indian media among liberal Pakistanis, I use the word liberal very broadly, in no classic British sense, it simply means not foaming at the mouth anti-Indian, since many such Pakistanis think of India as the

You’re probably right. Though just the other day someone was saying that Sindhi writers in India long for contact with Sindh precisely because of Nadeem Aslam’s empty swimming pool syndrome.

Speaking for myself, I was emailed a few Youtube videos of Pakistani television talk show hosts talking about the Bombay attack and India’s allegations against Pakistan. I’m used to jingoism on Indian television, but those videos were really, beyond comic. They seemed to embody a sort of cosmic denial.

They are sometimes the same people who criticize the BJP and Narendra Modi and the Indian state’s doings in Kashmir.

Another thought, or more of a horrible realization I had, was that my feeling that Indians of all kinds and communities know very little about Pakistan and Pakistanis and this attack aims at that faultline, so I was so relieved that Rajasthan and New Delhi rejected the BJP in state elections in the immediate aftermath of the attack, though I have heard almost no comment about that in the Pakistani print or TV media.

I think there’s another class of people, pluralist and broadly non-sectarian, neither hostile to Pakistan nor especially sentimental about it, who find the Pakistani state both puzzling and threatening.

While watching the recently-held Indian Cricket League (ICL) tournament, I noticed a high level of support for the Lahore Badshahs team (made up of Pakistani players). Fans at the Indian stadiums were even waving Pakistani flags. Is open support for Pakistan common and accepted? Or is it viewed with suspicion?

During the attacks in Mumbai, it was horrific, and I was obviously shocked and fearful for friends, and frankly, even personal safety. I could not help thinking that the attack had a very clear goal: to disrupt Pakistan-India relations at all kinds of levels.

Hi. I’m a writer based in Toronto.

Milan Kundera in his book of essays, The Curtain, traces among other things the influence of writers across nations. Kafka influences Garcia Marquez influences Rushdie.

What writers, beside South Asian writers, are read in India and Pak that comes from outside of the country?

And also, I’d like to know what writers have influenced both of you?

Then there are the Lahore Nostalgists who are passionate about Track II diplomacy and people-to-people contacts.

In reply to Suleiman’s question:

I don’t think there is ‘a’ Indian or Pakistani people.

I think there are many. There are, for example, many Indians who support the BJP and its affiliated parties who think of Indian Muslims as Trojan horses and Pakistani Muslims as congenitally hostile.

Can trust between the people of the two countries ever be restored after the Mumbai attacks?

Where in Bombay is it?

Blue Frog is stunning to see. Its got a turn-of-the-previous century, old-world Europe feel, like a cabaret in Berlin, but edgy contemporary. Jaw-dropping design.

Well, when you and I are in Bombay next, you must show me where to go!

To take the most obvious recent example, Vikram Chandra’s ‘Sacred Games’, which is a wonderful novel about Bombay and its underworld. It was sold for large sums of money in Britain and the US, but any desi, Indian or Pakistani that a novel can be true to a desi world and comprehensible to I, reading it will recognize the patois in which large parts of it are written, the taken-for-granted assumption those outside it. Also the understanding that just as we don’t get all the Upper East Side jokes in Woody Allen’s films, it’s okay for an English reader not to understand every word of an Indian novel.

About music: I find it very frustrating that Mumbai may be on the cusp of a great live music scene, because some wonderful venues have come up, and there is more interest in having such acts in the old venues, but some very interesting contemporary live music is in Pakistan, probably also because it has not been overwhelmed by Bollywood jhankaar. The venues that I have in mind, that have come up in these years that I have been in Mumbai, are Hard Rock Cafe and Blue Frog, both in Lower Parel. I had a walk around Bandra with Gumby Pinto, who lives in Karachi and has worked with a lot of bands and he was just shaking his head in disbelief at how perfect it would be if the people he knew could perform in Bandra.

All right, let’s take someone else: Arundhati Roy, God of Small Things. It would be a brave critic who’d make the argument that the book is aimed at some English or American focus group. I know it isn’t because good novels make you grin with recognition and happens all the time with Ghosh or Shadow Lines or Allen Sealy’s Trotter Nama.

About the fiction debate: Well, lets leave Midnight’s Children out of this. Since that was a once in a blue moon event. And I dont remember Ghosh’s first few novels doing much hi jinks with language/dialogue, so at this stage in his career he can play with language. Basically I want do disqualify these two examples.

Reply to Christopher York:

Christopher, I’m not in a position to say anything sensible about the business of popular music in the sub-continent, but in India for the first time, there is popular Hindi music being made outside the Hindi film industry, so that might be a hopeful sign for Pakistani makers of similar music. Interestingly, the Indian market for ‘vernacular’ pop music isn’t driven from within. It’s basically created in the English diaspora, where ‘bhungra’ and other genres became successful and were exported to the ‘mother’ country.

On the other hand if you read Pankaj Mishra’s ‘The Romantics’ you find many Indian references explained within the text. I’m not sure this necessarily means that the writer is pandering. He or she could just be hewing to an aesthetic preference: the idea that a writer of prose fiction should be wholly comprehensible to everyone who knows the language he’s writing in. A poet doesn’t have the same responsibility. Whereas prose (being prosaic!) ought to survive translation.

About overexplanation: I think it varies. So if you read Ruchir Joshi’s ‘The Last Jet Engine Laugh’ or Rushdie’s Midnight’s Children, or Amitav Ghosh’s ‘Sea of Poppies’ (all of which were published in England and elsewhere in the West) you can see that the fact of a Western sale has made no difference to the idiosyncrasy of the language.

Rahul Ram, a friend of mine, who is plays bass guitar for Indian Ocean, said that their music is automatically classified ‘world music’ in firangi music shops. Partly I suppose because it isn’t sung in English.

Hi. A question from an interested outsider currently traveling in Pakistan.

You’ve been talking about current enthusiasm amongst the English speaking youth from the middle-classes to listen to Urdu / Punjabi / Hindi pop rather than purely British or American imports.

Do you think this trend bodes well for Pakistan’s local media industry, which seems to have taken third place behind Hollywood and Bollywood in the past?

About the music: Mukul, I have been to a few parties in your neighbourhood where its 80s rock, and then Bollywood post dinner. Over here I was talking to Zeb and Haniya who said that they had a lot of trouble finding musicians who would work on an album that wasnt rock.

About the fiction: Mukul, yes. I think the issue would be that overexplanation.

Rehan, do you mean that Indian fiction in English sold abroad is likely to explain itself more?

Some of them teach, or work for newspapers or do other jobs, but there is a growing minority that writes for a living.

Reply to Hinna Yusuf:

Hina, we’re talking about people who often come out of middle class with salaried parents who aren’t investment bankers.

This is Chandrahas’s blog: http://middlestage.blogspot.com/
And this is Jai Arjun Singh’s: http://jaiarjun.blogspot.com/ which has lots of writing about books, but also a serious amount of film reviewing.

The interesting thing about popular music in India is how completely middle-class Indians have gone desi in their preferences.

Was a time in the Sixties, Seventies, even the Eighties, when you only swung to the Doors, or CCR, or the Grateful Dead. The thought of being cool or hip to a song in Hindi or Punjabi didn’t occur to any charter member of the English speaking classes.

Now, when my daughter goes dancing with her classmates, no one dances to anything but indipop in Hindi or Punjabi.

Aren’t we talking about a very small publishing elite who also have access to financial support in the form of property, family businesses, or day jobs with media outlets and advertising companies?

Everybody under 30 is a musician here!

Urdu song writing may be plumbing that swimming pool, there are now a good number of bands composing original songs in Urdu, Zeb & Haniya’s first album has 9 or 10 songs all original I believe, except for one that is a Pushto/Farsi folk song that they remade into a bluesy number: zeb&haniya.com

So you have bloggers like Amit Verma and Chandrahas Choudhury and Jai Arjun Singh who write reviews, commentary, fiction and make a space for themselves that didn’t used to exist before.

So clearly one answer that the Anglophone Indian has found to the absence of an enveloping English speaking world, is to go find it online!

That looks like fun. Some part of this new trend where people write for a living is to do with the Web.

Here is a short story competition that is an example of what I am curious about here and are the kind of initiatives that are interesting: http://www.lifestooshort.pk

The interesting thing about the economics of writing in English in India is that I now see more and more young writers living off their writing which didn’t happen so much earlier.

I look at writing here the way I used to look at desi ‘cultural production’ in Toronto in the 90’s. Its exciting if you get into the buzz of friends writing, or get excited about the economy of small numbers, so its about a good cause, say attending events at the Toronto Women’s Bookstore or a small press like Coachhouse Press.

Coachhouse, of course, published the young Atwood and Ondaatje.

Or to ruin Nadeem’s metaphor, can you plumb the depths of a shallow swimming pool.

Updike, at the end of a review of God of Small Things (which he liked very much) asked a related question. Great book, he said, but who is it debriefing?

That’s interesting. Which brings me to the point of this: how do you sustain a productive English language culture when there are so few people reading or writing the language?

Nadeem Aslam was asked in a reading in Delhi if he wrote in Urdu at all. And he said no, it would be like swimming in an empty swimming pool.

I thought that was a striking metaphor, but also one pretty close to the bone of English writing in the sub-continent.

Talking about the novelists: Kamila Shamsie is promoting her novels at half a dozen venues in Karachi at least, and anecdotally speaking, the two places I was present it was houseful, but I would guess the numbers of books sold are barely past a 1000.

I was talking to the publisher who runs Hachette in India, and he was saying that a really big novel by an Indian, say with the wind of the Booker at its back, can hope to sell a hundred thousand copies in its launch year. And that is really exceptional: confined to, say, the God of Small Things and maybe one or two others.

Well, the Times of India claims a combined circulation of some two million copies or thereabouts. The interesting thing about that is that this doesn’t translate into an English fiction readership of anything like the same magnitude.

About Yasin

I was speaking to two English language newspaper editors who talked about how English language circulation is in the doldrums for three decades, one of them claimed that Dawn had more readers in Lahore in 1964 than presently.

About Yasin’s question:

I’m no security analyst but there was a section of Indian public opinion (led by the Hindu, one of India’s better newspapers) which thought the deal was not so much a gift as a bad idea.

But also when I got out of the house today the sun reminded me of the sun in Hyderabad, Deccan. It just happened naturally. Both places bake you in the same way. Lahore and Delhi have the same heat. I was wondering if these kinds of associations make me a little off, since few can share them, er, very few. But is that a good or a bad thing? Knowing cities in both countries in an everyday way has gotten me very troubled on occasion, when say the Mumbai attacks happened.

Rehan, I’ve been writing, on and off, on the Anglophone desi, and since this conversation is being hosted by Dawn.com, I thought I’d ask you about the Pakistani readership that sustains newspapers like Dawn and reads, say, the English novel written by Nadeem Aslam or Kamila Shamsie.

Hi. You two are talking about different development trends in India and Pakistan. Don’t you think the issue here is that India (and so Indian cities) are participating in globalization in a way Pakistan (and Pakistani cities) are not. The trend in Pakistan is more….isolationist, or disconnected?

Well I just gave an example of looking at real estate here through Indian eyes.

The disconcerting thing about talking to you in Karachi is that for years now I’ve become used to thinking of you as an authority on the ins and outs of Bombay!

I have been in Mumbai three years, been visiting Pune, and Nagpur, been to Bangalore and Hyderabad and am shocked by the construction.

That number for Karachi is right, I am sure. I have just come from Mumbai and I know that the two cities have roughly the same numbers but it is a visual shock how little real estate development there is here compared to Mumbai… for example Mai Kolachi is a strip between Boating Basin and Lalazar, and it could be Karachi’s Marine Drive but there is nothing there yet, except for the new American Embassy coming up. Athough I hear that the mangroves along both sides of Mai Kolachi are protected and somebody pays somebody big money for that.

I should say here that I’ve never been to Pakistan, so I’m the most representative Indian subject you could get, chockful of second hand information, large opinions and hearsay about Pakistan!

Hey, I have a question for you guys. what do you think about India’s nuke agreement with the IAEA? Isn’t it a bit preposterous with all the concessions given? Why didn’t Pakistan get the same treatment?

I am at a cafe which has wifi, and its called Ciao, its located among these small lanes full of boutiques, and beauty salons and cafes, in say about 8 lanes there are as many coffee houses. Zamzama is in Clifton, and I took a taxi from PECHS (Society), which is a wholly different part of town, the moral equivalent of going from Karol Bach to Anandlok (where you are in South Delhi right?). And I hit really nasty traffic on Drigh Road (Sharae Faisal).

I havent found a place for wifi in PECHS.

What’s Karachi like, travel wise?

I read somewhere that greater Karachi adds up to 19 million people. Can that be right?

A year, I think. The man who’s in charge of building the metro, Mr Sridaran is clearly a foreign imposter pretending to be Indian. It’s the only public project in India that routinely comes in inside deadlines and under budget.

Thats what I was going to ask you, when do you think that will happen?

It improves for a bit and then we’re back to the cars that ate Delhi. I’m pinning my hopes on the metro turning up at my door and then I’ll abandon the automobile.

Has the driving time got better with the flyovers in Delhi?

I teach five days a week (which is three more days than anyone should teach!) and it generally takes me half an hour to get home

But most days you teach at Jamia, can you tell how long it takes you to get home in the afternoon?

Hi Rehan. None of the above! At home, actually.

Hi Mukul, how are you? I am not going to pretend I dont know, so I’ll try and guess where you are sitting, its either Jamia, the India International Library or at home.