@ ALL

We have all analyzed the problems confronting our land today, we have almost blamed every other country, political party, person for having put pakistan into current dilemma. We have rather beaten more about the bush instead of sensibly knowing the essence of two terms “Independence” & “Freedom”. To me, as Arnold also believes, “Your freedom ends with the wavelength of your nose.” From there starts the freedom of somebody else. Such narrowed is your freedom whether you live in pak, Uk, USA or in any corner of the world. And, yes, being independent is not just being physically roaming & wondering where you feel like, its concerned more with an independent mind rather than independent body. If your mind can think independently without any kind of barriers what so ever, only then you can be called an independent individual.

Happy Independence Day
It is the time to learn from our mistakes. Leave politics of hate, revenge, lies and self glory. Be honest to yourself and the country, always think of those who are suffering. Future is bright nation has to work hard.

It think moderation is the key to freedom. Afganistan lost her freedom despite being be an Islamic state, due to the absenece of moderation, priorities, judgment.
Saladin never attacked the christians, for him it was important to prepared and be strong, so the enemy knows it, and is deterred. He did not react to situations by invading them, thoug his brother complained, and gave them another chance.
Even if we know the root causes, weaknesses in the society,it is more important to stress, prioritize, and provide with constructive solutions, which is a postive approach, instead of simply criticizing oneself, which is negative.
Everybody knows about the underlying root causes like feudalism,corruption, poverty, lack of value system at grass root levels (the Islam) or something else, but it is more important ot strive with solutions & incentives instead of simply pointing fingers at one ownself, criticzining one own self. Change can happen by destruction also, but the price is high, the stakes are higher. Finding common grounds, with establisehd strength is a less destructive and more beneficial solution.
It is more constructive to motivate each other with solutions, the right attitude, the teachings of the Quran.
I agee non Muslims with in Pakitan have the right to live according to thier value system, just like Muslims have…
I also think well managed zakaat can play a vital role in providing, basic needs including sustencance and shelter to the have nots of the society, regardless of relgions.
Also, it will add businesses & increase production and create jobs.
I also think higher standard of education across the board can fee minds to think without the influence of materialism & the negative western ways like interest, same sex unions, flaunting, nudism. Pakistand should adopt their values like checks and balances, discipline, hard work, honesty, which is inherently Islamic values found more in the west.
Also, our value system demands that we should forgive each other, to please Allah and his rasool, learn lesson, move on with our lives, do not poke our noses in others private matters, motivate 7 help each other, specaially thsoe who have been disturbed, live life to gain utlimate success in the phase of our soul experience after this life, by not being selfish.

NO, we are not free. We wll not be free, as long as these fuedals who have no bone for patriotism keep ruling this beautiful nation. They are the root cause of problems in Pakistan. Crooks and incompetent officials presiding over high civil positions is just one minute example and prodcut of this feudal system.

i think the only way to make pakistan strong is to respect each other. saraiki sindhi balochi punjabi pothohari, hindko hazara barahvi and other nations are equal. we only need social, political and historical justice.

While it is all important to look in the mirror closely and find all the faults from within, it is also as important to realize that Pakistan does have enemies from outside.

It might fair to say that the country faces a threat from within and from the outside.

14th August, Independence Day is probably the only day in Pakistan celebrated by all Pakistanis.Abroad too people take the day off to participate in the festivities which are no less than that on Eid days.People of North with all their miseries & problems clebrated the day. After said this, the question is “Are we really free”.

I’ll second you on your thought, Salman. But my question remains, whenever someone says that the West is hurting Pakistani interests and taking away its sovereignty, exactly what is this sovereignty about?
We live and breathe in a country where we (as Muslims) are the ‘first class citizens,’ so what’s the commotion?
I simply refuse to swallow the concept of sovereignty one can find in Pakistani school books.
The results of the kind of “patriotic” (read chauvinistic) mindset that this concept has generated, have been a disaster.
We are free as free can be in a highly compressed and tense world.
I refuse to point the finger at either US or India or whoever for everything that has gone wrong in the Land of the Pure.
I’d rather we be bold enough to look at ourselves in ways that may amount to being “treachery” and “unpatriotic” in the eyes of people who are having a field day mouthing chauvinistic and self-evasive theories in the name of Pakistan and Islam.
What are we afraid of?
I believe the more we talk about sovereignty, and slavery, the more scared we are of what we may find if we look at ourselves a lot more closely than we do at “foreign hands.”

Zaf u will not b sick of tired of hearing that minorities are not treated equally…
If you just try to work on some place in Pakistan with name like “Zaf Peter” or “Zaf Krishna” or try to enroll ur self in national education institutes with above names.

Why are we so reluctant to accept wrong doings and blame other countries & their problems instead of looking into our-self? That’s what we are doing since independence.

Happy Independence Day to Pakistan from across the border!

One of the solutions to the problem of education and a lack of a mature civil society is to reverse the ”Brain Drain”, for instance Fazlur Rahman the Islamic Studies professor was harrassed by Pakistani extremists and he sought refuge in America. In America he produced some of his best work in religious intellectualism.

Similarly Akbar Ahmed the Muslim anthropologist is another case, an intelligent Pakistani he found his own native country inhospitable to academia.

First thing is to solve the crisis of religious authority in Pakistan. To adopt a system where clerics are professionally and academically trained rather than become self proclaimed ”leaders”.

Next is to reform the madrassas, the madrassas in the Abbasid Caliphate was where Greek philosophy was taught side by side with Quranic studies. The government needs to control these madrassas and transform them into centres of social change and religious intellectualism.

I am only talking about the religious issues becauses this is perhaps in the Pakistani context the most crucial factor.

Pak_Crazy notes:

“Dawn had reported not so long ago, that only 1% (sorry if I am mistaken) of the population has travelled abroad. The rest have never nor ever interacted with any foreigner, not are educated, nor know what’s the rest of the world like .. That also makes a big difference on the way people think.”

—-

Don’t feel like the Lone Ranger, as we say over here. Countless millions of Americans continue to believe that Saddam masterminded 9/11, and refer to the entire outside world as “over there” (without mental reference to the map or globe they never studied). Every child is born an ignorant savage, whether “over here” or “over there”….

@ NFP

I’m afraid I’d have to raise a point of dissent here. There are other young countries too just like Pakistan.

Pakistan is the only country which loves to loose its generations whenever they start to mature. However, nations loosing generations is a natural phenomena. Japanese, Germans, Chinese are example from recent history. But then they collect themselves, and start all over again — and we don’t. What we do is, commit a mistake and to rectify it we opt to support another mistake. Hence warranting a mistake with another of its kind. That’s how our past has been and that’s how our present is overly!

To quote Pakistan’s spiritual founding father, Allama Iqbal called for a Reconstructino of Religious Thought in Islam, for a distinction between Religion and Religious Knowledge. The former being Divine and the latter a product of human reasoning.

We need first an ijtihad on ijtihad and then reconstruct our legal, political and ethicl philosophies.

Furthermore new traditions have to be established, for example that of human rights.

To quote Iqbal:

The task before the modern Muslim
is therefore, immense. He has to rethink the whole system of Islam without
completely breaking with the past . . .

The only course open to us is to approach
modern knowledge with a respectful but independent attitude and to appreciate
the teachings of Islam in the light of that knowledge, even though we may be led
to differ from those who have gone before us.

(Reconstruction of Religous thought In Islam)

r.kaushal india,

Thank you for the wishes and happy I-Day to you and all Indian friends in advance

Unfortunately, being strong militarily is part of being a strong country. Add to that, the conflicts between the two nations, there is every reason to pour more money in the weapons.

It’s sad but that’s how things are.

Almost a decade ago, it was decided that the education in Pakistan is poor and needed to be improved.

A decade ago .. does anyone see any changes? None whatsoever.

But what can we do about it? Enough of finding faults – they are all present in front of our very own eyes – but tell me how to solve the issue?

Isnt the media’s job to bring more awarness to the people that look guys .. our education is pathetic. The media has a gift and they should use it!

I am more free to practice my religion in a Christian country than i have ever been in Pakistan. How can I call myself Free?

@NFP
Don’t you think that to take a joint venture with US over the elimination of the very elements we produced together barely can have any good consequences in that US has only it’s interest to look to – and in doing so, it may well step over Pakistan’s interests, as it has done times and again in the past.
If sacrifising sovereignty would do us a good in that it eliminates the Taliban factor from the equation, we certainly should second it. However, we also need to look to the end point where US will have its interests served and we’d be left alone to put together the rubbles and rectify the collateral damages done in the way.

A distinction has to be made between American culture, philosophy and society and American government and American foreign policy.

The latter in my opinion is of no use and is a complete shambles but the former has many elements Pakistanis can learn from. This should be ideal for a cross cultural exchange in line with Gadamer’s hermeneutical theory of ”a fusion of horizons”.

Murtaza Razvi

I am not sure if you are pointing the finger at me, or making just a general remark. If it is the former, then you are just twisting my words. And if it is the latter, then apologies in advance.

I dont agree with the concept that a ‘Muslim can not be a killer’. This statement is as crazy as is the state of affairs the country finds itself in.

Like you said correctly, why even bring Religion involved?

I live abroad and I see Muslims commiting all types of crimes on daily basis. Crimes vary from robberies, to rapes, to anything that you can think of. So, yes, I am with you and I dont buy this cheap defence – is it even a defence? – that some people use.

And that is why I said earlier, that I dont even bother reading Pak media – apart from Dawn of course – as they use the same type of defence. This is a crime if you ask me committed by the media. The media CANNOT base themsevles on conspiracies.

Also while Muslims are capable of any crimes the humanity knows, I will stop from making general statements.

If better and unbiased education is given to people, then things will improve. You and I are the lucky ones. We got the education and can now think for ourselves. But what about the millions that have been misguided from childhood? Put yourself in their shoe for a second and tell me how would you react, if not by using the statement above?

Better and unbiased education backed by a strong media that does its job. That brings awarness to the masses – not just to the few that speak and understand English – will be a good start. We will eventually get rid of this silly mentality that Muslims are angels and everyone else is bad. Education will solve the problems.

Dawn had reported not so long ago, that only 1% (sorry if I am mistaken) of the population has travelled abroad. The rest have never nor ever interacted with any foreigner, not are educated, nor know what’s the rest of the world like .. That also makes a big difference on the way people think.

i wish all my pakistani friends independence day. i have wish both our nations will normalise their relations and work towards betterment of their citizens lives . it is sad to both the countries investing billions of dollars on new weapon systems yet there are millions of people on the both sides who are in deep poverty . these was not our dream or our goal when we attained our independence .

Murtaza, you are reading too much British written history. Use common sense. Have you heard of a term called no one is above law? If a brother is doing wrong, he should be punished. Islamic rules brought peace and justice for all regardless of religion, race, caste and creed. Do a favor for the readers, learn to use common sense.

@Zaf
How does ‘other countries’ concern us? For long have we deployed the manoeuvre of criticizing others to continue with our state of self-denial. We are quite fond of indulging into comparing ourselves to other bad examples and then claiming happily being ‘no good’ than them.
How is that supposed to solve problems? Rather, it thrawts us from looking into the matter and actually devising measures to solve it. Only once we stop playing this blame-game (62 years are enough time for it) shall we be able to bring about a positive change in Pakistan.

Concerning what Pak_Crazy Says: August 14th, 2009 at 20:12: Dawn alone cannot do the trick. News media (& other organizations) run on voluntary, non-profit basis are an essential prerequisite of our capacity to survive this age.

Solution:
Get our educational system straight. That, alone, can guarantee us a change. For unless people change, the system can’t. And to change the people, and the very mindset, we need to revise our educational system.
Moreover, religious extremism should be contained by introducing special educational reforms for madressahs – now this must be done! For if we look from it, without addressing the issue, we’d be letting another generation of religious extremists being brought up in a biased curricula.

Zaf. Relax.
The Americans just voted in a black President. Can you expect a Christian, Hindu or a Parsi President or PM in Pakistan?
No.
So, Zaf. Relax.

Absar,
Before we ever so rhetorically announce that Pakistan has surrendered its sovereignty to America, we must ask, exactly what is meant by a sovereign Pakistan?
I have no clue. To me my country is as soverign as any young country can be in this big, bad world.
And on another note, I will second what Naeem Davis asked in his post: “If we created some monsters i.e. Taliban with the help of CIA/Saudia/ISI, then why not we eliminate them with help of USA.”
A simple but rational question. Wonder why we have to complicate the answer. An answer spouted just to justify a strange concept of macho-paranoid patriotism.

When it comes to indepedence I think we have gained it territorially by the demarcation of a state called Pakistan. However, we continue to be tied into a symbiotic relationship with the West because we are unable to maintain independence in governing and development. In essence, we still depend on our internal agendas to be defined by a pushing and shoving from other countries. To attain a sense of self actualization we need a government and nation that defines its agenda with recognition from voices within itself.

Freedom on the other hand has multiple faces. It means the freedom of ideas, religions, identities – some of the things along this spectrum are things that Pakistan has achieved. A vibrant media is one facet of this. Pushing the boundaries is also a manifestation of freedom and the nascent citizen power and freedom to articulate and demand our rights would be another. Freedom is a shifting concept for countries world round and Pakistan is no different.

At 62, what we need to consider is a freedom from violence within our borders that can only be achieved if we are willing to believe that all of us, especially those of us with multiple identities, religions, ideologies and faiths are free to profess and live together. If we continue to define the contours of freedom as one dominant ideology then the ideas and struggles of those who gave us independence will be in vain.

Pak Crazy,
I find the sense of denial that ‘No Muslim can ever do this or that kind of evil’ more revolting among some of us. Isn’t that the flip side of the argument that a whole people cannot be condemned for the act of a few? Muslims are as likely to be evil and sinful as the rest of the world. Nobody’s blaming the entire Muslim community of the world, but when you say ‘no Muslim can kill another’ it excludes the killers being Muslim. The same goes for any other faith and its followers so why even bring Muslims into everything?

And the foremost method of such a change shall be a shift in our educational system – we need to rid the educational system which has long taught has enemities, biases, bigotries and nothing productive. Rather, we have managed generations fed on such lies and a resultant society where tolerance is an alien notion.
To rid this, as NFP cited in an article of his a while ago, we must change the entire educational system.

I think we all agree that there are many problems in the country.

But what are the solutions? And the best way to achieve it?

I am sick and tired of hearing that minorities are not treated well. Go to any country in the world and you will see minorities are not treated well. From Blacks in America to Muslims in China, minorities always get the tough end of the stick. Yes the Gojra incident was wrong but its not like the rest of pakistan is safe, and muslims are safe from other muslims. In a chaotic country, everyone will be caught up in the mess.

Dr. Aamir Salaria,

Very good post.

This morning, I got a SMS from someone saying: “Mr. Paracha, all the TV channels are running patriotic songs and showing Benazir Bhutto instead of Quiad-e-Azam and Liaqat Ali Khan. I’m sure you are fine with that?”
Yes, I am fine with that. As long as they are not showing Muhammad Bin Qasim, Zaid Hamid and Aamir Liquat – supposedly the only true Pakistanis.
The point is, they can show Jinnah, Liaquat, BB, Zardari, Nawaz, Altaf, whomsoever who believes or believed that democracy is the best answer addressing many of the political, social and economic issues facing this country.
All we have ever constructed, nay, invented, is one sacred cow after another.
For what purpose? What are we safeguarding? About time we start feeling confident of ourselves and not be dependent on explaining our patriotism through myths associated with these sacred cows.
To me, Zulfikar Ali Bhutto, Nawaz Sharif , Benazir , Chaudary Iftikhar and Altaf Hussain are as important as Jinnah or Liaquat Ali Khan were.
We just have to move on and stop defining what image or personality exhibits “true patriotism.”

Exactly – people are people.

And each one is different from the next.

This is why I disagree with the collective punishment that some people make by painting the whole society based on a few random crooks – cheats, hypocrites and what not.

62 years to our official independence and we still find ourselves discerning the true ‘interpretation’ of Quaid’s vision or the truth of the very ideology we found Pakistan upon.
The truth is that even after some six decades, we are so stuck with the regional traditionalism, overt religiosity and democratic instability in our country, that we are perhaps no better than a colony. Not to overlook the social hypocrisy which has become a national trait, we tend to look ‘elsewhere’ whenever it comes to finding mistakes – India, US, Israel, politicians to masses, masses to politicians, us to them, me to he. The fingers always points elsewhere – and as a result, we have failed to evolve, over time, to dissolve the traits we ought to rid of – rather they’ve become deeply vested within us, with the need to draw them away getting acuter by the day.
It’s only after a realization that we shall be truly independent – of the very amalgam of feudality, political and military beaurocracy and a resulting system of social injustices that has long wed us. The change always starts from I and me. A realization, of our own mistakes, and an effort, to rid them and to change – that’s all we need as a nation to proclaim our independence, not the green flags looking from the roof-tops neither the self-righteous speeches of our politicians every Aug 14th.

Happy independence day to all Pakistanis!

I will agree with Absar here. We as a nation are trying to find a way. Some say its democracy some say its communism while others agree with dictatorship.

Problem lies with the “Justice” system as rightfully so raised by some people here.

We lack law and order in our country. That is our main problem which is not addressed by our media as much as it should be addressed.

Sovereignty is not something you beg others for; it’s something you assert if you have it in you. Saddam did that and paid a heavy price for himself and for his people (the latter had a choice of being killed by Saddam or the US). I am glad we are not as reckless in exercising our sovereignty.

Concerning what Absar Says: August 14th, 2009 at 19:15:- Pakistanis lost their sovereignty when they decided it was better to line up at Embassies for wage-slavery in the Western World rather than to give in to the demands of the pro-religion elements in this country. Face it, migration has always been an act of protest and those being protested against have always been too thick-skulled to realize it as such, until it is too late.

Murtaza Razvi,

I agree that the people that have done most harm to the nation were/are all educated.

I also agree that it is high time that the textbooks that we use are thrown in the bins once and for all and we improve our education .

The problem with our society is that the good people dont have a voice; only the crooked people are given media access most of the time. Blame the media for this. They can defenitely play a better role.

Dawn is the only Pak newspaper I read. I dont even bother with the rest as they are too pathetic. However, does Dawn reach to people to that dont read/understand English? If they are not, they should. Dawn is a good source of information and respected world wide. They should have a urdu version of it.

Also, coming back to the point on education, majority of people cant read or write and these are the people that are easily manipulated by the leaders.

Lack of education and lack of quality education is a big concern. Not a cheating Muslim or a liar Muslim.

That was my original point to your views.

As much as I will like to say that we are free, independent and sovereign state and people, the fact of the matter is that we are not. The sooner we realize it, the better.

I will not blame the US or any other so-called super-power for all of our problems and ills. We must develop the guts and the grit ‘to call spade a spade’ and look deep down into our own hearts, souls and minds before blaming anybody else.

If the US is attacking our land and people in the name of the so-called ‘war on terror’ it is only because of our feeble and weak leadership. If the US is doing what it wants in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan, nobody else but we as a nation and its so-called ’servant leadership’ is to be blamed.

We must understand that the US and all other countries work only for their ‘own vested interest’ in the guise of ‘national interest’ and as long as we don’t do the same, we will not be able to become a real ‘free and independent state’

Nevertheless, I can still see some light at the end of the tunnel. Pakistani people, by which I mean ordinary Pakistanis like you and me, are hard-working, patriotic, understanding, intelligent and pretty smart people. If we can be successful overseas, why not in our own land? It is these people of the land of the pure that I consider as the greatest asset of Pakistan and come what may, they will keep on trying to make their ‘each tomorrow’ better than today.

Pakistan Zindaa Baad, People of Pakistan, Paeenda Baad.

@ NFP

Slavery — it’s not just about dependency.

When Pakistan being a slave of US is considered, by and large people mean to say that Pakistan has given USA some undue rights to meddle in its territory — politically and economically.
This terminology often comes with a whim that US is funding Pakistan, and as an upshot Pakistan has surrendered its sovereignty to US.

it is due to the lack of visionary leadership in our country that we are handicaped in terms of governance, economy education, social welfare for the people.
we can not run country on aid, it always come with strings attached to it. let me give you some examples: recently US government offer to its states assistance of $500 millions for employment benefits to the people of the state. some states like texas refused to take the money because of conditioned attached to it.
so the aid come to pakistan from US must have many unfavourable conditioned attached to it.
i will think twice before saying that americans are helping pakistan. they are true friends.
i am not chosing between US and militants because you will always loose if you choose between vampire and werewolfe.

Dear Jam,
While Islam teaches us a lot of good things, please rest assured that no religion teaches its followers bad things. people are people, like you rightly mentioned Aurangzeb the Mughal, who stitched caps to make a living but who also led crackdowns against his own family… Please get real. No nobody says that Islam taught him to do those evil deeds to his own family. So Islam is never under threat!

We are free but not from our thoughts….

Sick of the conversation that USA is responsible for every thing in Pakistan, and most of the time it is portrayed as Muslims vs. non-Muslims. We have to understand USA is super power. They are not against Muslims but they are interested in this region like any other meanly super-power.

We have to learn from our neighbors like China, India, which are much less under the influence of USA because these countries were much quicker then us to overcome issues related to their unity, education, honesty and never allowed to use their geographical limits for proxy war against other countries.

If we created some monsters i.e. Taliban with the help of CIA/Saudia/ISI, then why not we eliminate them with help of USA.

Has anyone imagined the scenarios if we don’t get military/humanitarian aid from USA…. then probably 24/7 Load shedding, more price hikes, more Terrorist activities, bomb blasts…and so on.

@Cy — good point. I wish that they had more forceful avenues for protest available to them.

On another note, a lot of people feel too many of us have ‘opted out’ even while living here. I sometimes feel like by just getting through the day Pakistanis (of all types) are doing this nation a great service.

I am in total agreement with Murtaza.

Slave has a different meaning today than the word originally meant.

Which country, on the order of a foreigner, starts killing his own people? Kill the terrorists all you want, but why are you killing civilians too?

Musharaf himself said that he was told to accept the war on terror OR the country will go to stone age. That’s my point.

We are slaves and at the mere threat, we kneel.

History is filled with evidences: a country standing only on aid is a slave of the donor. Can it think independently? Nope. It has to do what his ‘master’ or the donor wants him to do.

Yes we are free. But we used this freedom the wrong way and today suffer from anarchy and subordination by foreign countries. We are responsible for whatever has happened to Pakistan. Each and everyone of us. Especially those sitting abroad including me singing patriotic songs and leaving emotional messages for independence day for our country which is on the brink of ruin. We are not the one suffering, so its easy to sing ballads, make poems, send messages. You ask the common man who lives without water, electricity, education, a stable job and most of all food. You ask him if it is infact a happy indepdence?

Elements like greed and injustice replaces scarify and selflessness. When these two elements speared in the society then the society feels the spirit of freedom has disappeared. Take the example of India where people are awake and they have forced Nawabs (Nizam, Begum Junagarh, and Waljid Ali Shah) and Rajas (B P Singh, Karan Singh etc.) to join and strengthen their government. Landlords in India have given their lands to distribute their wealth evenly.

So, in a nutshell, the Pakistanis are responsible for the loss of their freedom. Islam teaches to be free from all greed and injustice and treat people of all denominations with respects and regards. Pakistan was built on Islam but inherited some other systems of government. Take the example of King Aurangeb who sewed caps and did labor work to make his livelihood and he ruled India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, a part of Afghanistan, etc. for more than 50 years without modern day’s telecommunications. He was free from greed and injustice.

Huma
I most certainly agree with the ‘minority’ groups who refused to celeberate this Independence Day.
And sloganeering is fine. But this sloganeering should be about hoisting flags, and not lynching those who are angry with the ‘majority’ for apathetically letting them down in the name of Islam and Pakistan.

Pak Crazy,
The people who have harmed this country most have been educated people, at least graduates! It’s not education per se but the quality of education that is available to our people. Our textbooks only tell us how great we are and how the whole world is bent upon destroying us. Even then, what have we done about it? Other than produce bigots and reactionary people who blame the rest of the world for all of their own failures.

Let’s take this day and congratulate our country on its independence day.

Jeeay Pakistan, Pakistan Zindabad.

Freedom and liberty are acquired over time and struglles spanning generations. It does not come easy to any country. OUr country has suffered and endured over 60-years. It went through some very depressing times especially from 1958 through the last days of Zia.

We do have better freedom of expression than a few years ago. The judiciary has triumphed over a dictator who has been effectively exiled by the people. Hopefully the last dictator of Pakistan with out Pakistan. Let this be a lesson for all the Generals in GHQ.

We need to look forward and work for the future as a country and a nation that is weighed down by regional distrust and ethnic hatred.

We are Pakistanis at the end of the day no matter who we are and where we live.

Salim Akbani

Speaking of freedom — am I now free to upload an inoffensive avatar of my choosing? It seems that only the favored few are allowed this luxury. Image is everything, they say….

What is with this word, ‘slave?’
I’ve noticed it coming up more often than before.
If someone has dependence on something is he or she always a slave?
Are the homeless and the orphans dependent on Abdul Sattar Eidhi, his ‘slaves?’
The thing is it has a nice twist and ring to it, this word, slave, especially when uttered in respect to ‘conditional’ US aid to Pakistan.
Most people even have a problem when a Western country dishes out aid for social, educational and economic purposes and attaches a condition that this aid better be used properly and not manhandled by the government, bureaucracy and military of Pakistan.
How can following this condition amount to us becoming slaves?

We are not slaves of the West. We are slaves to a distorted history and perception of what constitutes being a democratic and Muslim republic.

In other words, we end up calling democracy slavery and a humiliating precondition to getting aid, and then turn from being Muslims into becoming ‘Islamic.’

To me, the above is what much of the 62 years of Pakistan have been about.
Nonetheless, did I ever think that I as a Pakistani I was ever a slave? Nope.

Now don’t say my optimism too is part of my slavery to the sadistic west.

A week after what we allowed to happen to Christians in Gojra, we should not have been celebrating this Independence Day as we have been, while the killers of Gojra (and Muridke)walk free. Worse still, will they ever be brought to justice? There is just not enough condemnation of what we do to Pakistani minorities (and most women), let alone a promise to bring the perpetrators of crime against humanity to justice. I have little cause to celebrate, really…

Concerning what Umar Suleman Says: August 14th, 2009 at 17:34:- you are the 1st commentator on this article who has been decent enough to mention the freedom of animals in the same breath as that of humans. All over South Asia we must have Animal Liberation Front branches and Infoshops and Radical Bookstores selling the most lethal anticapitalist literature imaginable if not in local languages then atleast in English.

Murtaza Razvi

It is your right to say what you want.

You want to talk about what concerns you, then fine. However, cheats and hypocrite should not be a biggest concern than lack of education, healthcare, security and employment.

You are trying to paint all Pakistanis with the same brush, which is totally incorrect. Not everybody in Pakistan is a cheat.

However, it is your right, so go ahead.

And lastly, just because Pakistan’s foreign policies are not correct, it doesnt NOT mean that I cannot criticize another country’s policies; especially if that country is the most powerful in the world.

That’s my right.

Huma: those not willing to celebrate this independence day aren’t opting out – they continue to live here and, probably, would do so even if they had other options.

Perhaps what they’re doing is protesting – and using today to draw attention to their, very legitimate, grievances.

Hello and Namaskar,
Happy wishes for Pakistan and India.
We need to be developed and alot in all aspects. Education, poverty and become good humans. De loyal to your country where you live and work for it.

Sameer
Proud Indian Muslim

After living in turmoil for 62 years, Pakistanis understand that democracy and freedom of expression are valuable qualities that make their lives worth hoping for a better future.

On this anniversary of Pakistan let us hope that democracy stays in Pakistan and grows stronger to establish a rule of law that delivers against all those who think of themselves beyond law. Let us support the judiciary to become stronger and capable of dealing with the rich, the mighty, the feudal lords, military and ISI under the constitution of Pakistan.

NFP — independence day is all about sloganeering! You mention intolerance, do you agree with some minority groups that decided not to celebrate today because they feel this nation hasn’t given them much to celebrate. Is just opting out the best answer?

Unfortunately,the outsiders are taking advantage of our faults.

Ahmed,

Good on you. You are optimistic, unlike me, and hope that your words are true.

I cant see anything positive with Pakistan

But that does not mean that I can agree to any negative points just for the sake of it. Good and bad in societies is present everywhere. So that’s not my concern if one is a cheat or not.

The overall picture – internationally – Pakistan is termed as a Failed State. That’s my concern.

I’m willing to accept that there is a distinction between a country’s political leadership and its policies and the people of a country – after all, many of us have an intense dislike for the direction this country has been taken in, but that doesn’t translate into automatically disliking every Pakistani!

Yet, there seems to be a macho, chest-thumping angle to our security paranoia – we’re perennially worried about others trying to ‘break up’ or ’sabotage’ or ‘undermine’ Pakistan, despite swearing we’re strong enough to withstand the entire world, if it comes to that.

Get real, get pragmatic, get things done for a change – how about that for a new approach?

While I can feign concern about the rest of the world, I think it is my right and yours to be concerned about what goes on in our midst…

lol NFP. That’s right. Hypocrisy and two-facedness prevails in Pakistan.

I also have a lot against my own government’s foreign policy. Why blame the Americans for theirs when we can’t fix our own?

I think and i really do believe that Pakistan has won it’s freedom.I have visited many countries around the world and i have come to realize aside from few countries in Far east and SOME in western Europe and Americas that Pakistan is on path to development and prosperity.I honestly believe in this.Btw I have met many pathans and they seem more concerned for Pakistan than anyone!
Peace

Murtaza Razvi,

The way your mind works, nobody and no country is good enough as hypocrysy, lies, cheats are found every where – even in Saudi Arabia, or the Vatican or in Jerusalem.

If these holiest cities are not spared by the human nature, then why expect Karachi, Lahore, Quetta etc to be?

Yes Pakistanis are murderers, liars, cheats, hypocrites, .. but these are also true for any other nation.

@ Huma

There’s always a way out, I believe. While Bhutto once said, we’ll eat grass, but will make atom bomb — shows his exuberance. People of Pakistan accepted it, by and large.

Our leaders could have raised their fervent voice, we should also have, not accepting the US demands. Unfortunately, we’re being bankrolled by US today, but ignore the crucial facts that the same bankrolling has made Pakistan cede its sovereignty. We’re trading our country for funds. If status quo persists, this trading will come to an end — tragic end — one day with no such country name ‘Pakistan’ existing on the face of earth!

BTW, the poll that has been used many times in this discussion .. is based on 1200 people only .. or roughly that.

So while it is a good indication, it is not a certaintly. Dont base all your opinions on this poll alone.

Plus, Pakistanis have nothing against Americans BUT only their governement’s foreign policies. Which in fact is a problem for many in the US too ..

Larry Stout Says:
August 14th, 2009 at 18:33: wellsaid

Bless you NFP. In this homeland of ours we are free to be hypocritical, crooked, wicked and God-fearing, Umra-performing Muslims to wash off our sins. We’re even free to con people and rip them off of their savings by putting them on a one-way Umra trip; we’re even free to give them slippers whose heels we fill up with drugs, which in the Kingdom of God Himself carries a death penalty, and that too after a very swiftly processed justice…

US sells billions of dollars worth of weapons to India. It’s ok. India is a power house and can afford to buy. US sells. That’s business.

But why are they so reluctant to give drones to Pakistan so we can use them?

- Drones wont destroy India. India has nothing to fear from the drones. So I dont think India will object.

- If Pak Army uses the drone, people will be more supportive.

We have been asking for three years now for night vision goggles. Where are they?

Are the US really serious when they say they want to fight terror. The way I see it, the longer the war lasts, the better it is for them. They are holding a very strategic place – Russia, China, India all nearby .. They control the area.

//The more aid we get, the more slaves we are becoming.//

It can’t be more true than this.

Pakistan’s hands-on participation in war on terrorism is the best way for Pakistan to receive funds from US of A. Although it’s a different debate on “War on Terrorism”; nonetheless Pakistan should fight to dispatch terrorism, but not under the US of A, not by drone attacks.
As I was reading a statistic published by DAWN last year says 687 innocent civilians are dead in drone attacks as yet; however, just 14 al Qaeda members are dead. The report is of last year. The ratio of innocents death would sure have risen too much by now.

I remember Obama doing an ardent speech in Cairo lately. He talked about Islam which says killing one innocent is just like killing the whole humanity. He quoted this Quranic Verse while talking about 9/11 catastrophe. But he deliberately missed the recalling of dead innocents in drone attacks while orating. So hypocritical of him!

And I reiterate again, action speaks louder than words. Paper politics and verbal politics is much different than practical politics and policies. Period!

As the sentiments against the US grow among Pakistanis, the number of Pakistanis applying for a US Visa too grows more than ever before.
Now, can this be attested to the shameful notion of hypocrisy, or to simple, pragmatic and apolitical opportunism?
Wonder which is worse.
Once again, a happy Independence Day where the independence from self-righteousness, intolerance and irresponsible accusations and demagogic sloganeering should be the order of the day.

Concerning what Naushad Says:
August 14th, 2009 at 18:28: I think you are being prejudiced in favor of Islam

I agree with Cy. The US is not our worst enemy, contrary to the common perception. Can beggars be choosers?

@ Absar

What would you have us do, though? As citizens, I mean, not the government/state apparatus. The Friends of Pakistan weren’t interested in helping us, the US seems to be the only country that stepped in when we were on the verge of economic breakdown. If we, as citizens, have a problem with the fact our govt is bankrolled by US, what can we do?

Huma, one is more likely to voice grievances when it affects them. As for most people on the right side of the establishment, they are having a ball. Few will have any conscience left in them to say what needs to be said, and that indeed is tragic. It’s part of human condition. When we deal with the Americans, we seek economic aid; they seek ‘compliance’ from us over issues that will benefit them. Where’s morality these days? Not even in textbooks which now only present to our pupils what we like to believe of us…

Huma: you asked if our diplomatic relationship with America is stifling our nationhood.

Here’s what the latest survey says: http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=265

The headline speaks for itself: Pakistani Public Opinion: Growing Concerns about Extremism, Continuing Discontent with U.S.

Then again, if it weren’t for their money, or the pressure on the IMF, we wouldn’t even be economically afloat right now. Not quite a case of biting the hand that feeds you and the US is clearly not acting out altruism by doling out the money in the pipeline, but it’s an interesting juxtaposition nevertheless.

My opinion is that foreign powers will never let Pakistan grow economically. Imagine if we are strong economically, will we jump up and down at their mere request?

The more aid we get, the more slaves we are becoming. Call it evil or not, but it’s not in Pakistan’s interests to follow everything that they say.

I believe in the theory: when someone wants a fish, don’t just give him the fish. Teach him how to fish! this will more helpful to him.

US can help Pak a lot with its economy but it prefers to just give aid .. and control us even further.

The problem is that we will never have a strong leader to rule Pakistan.

to Larry Stout

Good post!

I apologize if I sounded too negative on my previous post btw. I got a bit too emotional ..

@ Huma

Yes, our diplomatic relations with US of A is stifling our nationhood.

US’s control over Pakistan is worst of its kind. It is domination in return for cash. The hope of a better future outcome after initial troubles is nothing more than false hope. This is not hope, but the height of shame… Pity, that’s our ethos today!

Today and yesterday I had chat with many firends from NWFP and Balochistan. To my expectations every one was in a mood of despair. Nobody wants to celebrate the 14 August. By some of their replies I was even shocked as they were too harsh. I wrote an Independence Greeting on Facebook. Then every body came to choke me. Most of them were from NWFP and Balochistan. It also made me extremly unhappy. I spent my day inside vainly trying to convince my friends of the independence, if there is any. The situation is very much alarming. What is going on either in NWFP or in Balochistan is generally deemed by the intelligentsia of these provinces as done by design. What is going on in NWFP is regarded as the mischief of the Pakistani establishmen. Similarly what is going on in Balochistan is seen as the handling of the Pakistani mischievous establishment. It is thought that in NWFP all is done in the name of the mysterious ‘national interest’. First the militants were raised, groomed and rared and after they exceeeded from their defined jurisdiction operations (they term these as dramas) were launched only to destroy Pukhtun land and development. They still deem the operation as drama.(Though to me things are now different as the used to be). I think these greviences of both the provinces must immediately be met otherwise a disintegration is imminent. The government and the armed forces and civil society must heed to this issue at the earliest convenience.

Murtaza, there was talk earlier this morning about how people on the wrong side of the state are definitely not free. But what about people who are on the right side of the state. For example, popular politicians or army generals. Isn’t everyone answering to someone else the way our society is set up? To scions of dynastic politics, to intelligence agencies, to US govt officials, etc…

Nasir Abid writes:

“For all who do not like this country or are always finding fault with it – LEAVE! We do not want you here! For those who love Pakistan let’s all do our bit for this country.”

—-

This begs the question, how can you “do your bit” unless you first identify what bit needs doing? In other words, finding fault. Anyone with a sound mind and reliable information is qualified to find fault (with government or whatever), but the power to effect constructive change does not come with that qualification. Do you mean, then, that those who see and understand but are not empowered should just shut up and/or depart? Please! I despise the American bumper-sticker that declares, “America — love it or leave it!” Don’t confuse the government with the country. And don’t gag the right-minded critics — the religious fanatics and powerul elite can handle that by themselves.

First of all, Happy Independence Day to All! Thanks for the well wishes from India that have posted here. Thank you.

—-

Onto the topic, my response is that we are not free at all. Does freedom mean:

- having no lights/electricity when havings kids to deal with?

- does it mean that I cant drive on any road without fearing the police to pull me to get some money from me?

- does freedom mean that I cant get justice?

- does freedom mean not to have proper schools for my kids?

- And does freedom mean that I have no say when every tom, dick and harry are selling the country’s resources to foreigners cheaply?

- Are we free when Balochistan is being neglected and there are calls for seperation.

- Are we free that when in an emergency I have to go to hospital for an urgent operation, I am asked to deposit the money first or I wont get treatment. At 4, in the mdidle of the night, I am expected to carry 4/5 lacks for the operation. If I dont have money, I can die .. They dont care.

- Is it indeed freedom that when I drink water, I feel sick the next day?

- is it freedom when the majority of the country are uneducated and because of this are manipulated all the time by politicians?

We are not free. The past two decades have destroyed the country. It is our fault. We keep electing the same tried and failed people. We are cowards. We dont want change.

In reference to US Pak relations, a friend forwarded an interesting poll: http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/08/2009888238994769.html

To Talha,

It’s not about sufi-ism. Rather it’s about realism. Either we ditch our worldly desires – individually and collectively – until we’re up on our own two feet, or the current narcissistic system will force it upon us. Just like hordes of people in the US of A were recently forced to create camp cities across the country because they could no longer afford mortgages, car notes, and credit cards. An example: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090813/ap_on_bi_ge/us_foreclosure_rates_9
You see Muslim and non-Muslim, rich and poor, educated and illiterate, etc are all secondary identities… separating people at one level or another. But, when you merge all these identities into one – “Muslims”, everyone becomes equal; thus more compelled to help each other. As Muslims we don’t ask anything of non-Muslim citizens more than being patriotic Pakistanis, though.
In simpler words, Muslims have to respect non-Muslims, which we do for the most part. We just have to take it to higher level. Educated will have to share their education and skills without charging exorbitant fees as most private school systems do that the large middle finds more and more difficult to afford. Rich have to share their fortune with poor and share the latter’s discomfort.
That, my friend, can only go so far without an identity other than Islam. Since this identity connects one directly to Allah, he/she cannot be bought at any cost; for none can reward more than his/her Creator. At that point it becomes a win-win game for everyone whether one lives or dies. Either way, it inspires tens, hundreds, and thousands to perpetuate giving instead of taking; without any caps and timelines. That’s when you begin to witness positive change at collective level.

Very interesting comments. Quite a lovely debate indeed. In most cases, one is as free to act of a free will as one would push the boundaries unless, of course, you are on the wrong side of the state or its institutions which then take it upon themselves to lay down the limits to freedom.

I think it’s not the Democracy, Dictatorship, Communism, Anarchy, Monarchy etc. to grant the citizens the ‘Freedom’. We talk a lot about Democracy and Dictatorship — and do comparison in order to determine which is the best system for Pakistan. Concerning the national institutions, freedom and independence solely depend on the “Justice”. And concerning the civilians/citizens, its adoption is contingent upon the thoughts and education of an individual.

The freedom within Pakistan is dismantled. We’ve right to vote, right to sit in opposition, but all this doesn’t weigh much today. Why? Action speak louder than words. From the head of the state to the representative of voters — the parliamentarians — they still are unable to change the status quo.

Sad, but true.

The Dawn.com live blog resumes at 6:00 p.m. (PST) and will continue until 9:00 p.m.

Over the afternoon, Pakistan’s relationship with the United States has come up in many of the comments. To start off the second half of this discussion, I’d like to ask, is our diplomatic relationship with America really stifling our nationhood?

I remember doing archival research in Dawn as a student, and seeing the paper from the day Eisenhower visited Karachi — he was welcomed with open arms, but received on our terms, not his — that was in 1959.

We are not a free Nation until we are independent economically and politically as well. Economic dependence must be uprooted in order to claim that we are an independent Nation.

While we are discussing if we’re free we study the few who actually possess freedom. Freedom is the rhino in an African jungle, free is the homeless drunkard besides the junk in NY city, free is the infant who lives besides all his family who just died in a train accident. All these have real freedom according to the modern (and if I may say western) definitions and aspirations. For apparent reasons we needed to have the (western version of) basic human rights in addition.

Now, this duo has been blown so out of proportion by vested interests and their over-simplistic supporters, that humanity today is on the verge to forgo its values, imagination and sense of ever-increasing excellence, articles of much more importance to humankind.

IMHO freedom (plus an exception of human rights) is a very rudimentary and partial constituent of humankind. Humankind is much bigger, much higher and it must seek a befitting agenda for itself which probably and ironically it is not free to set by itself.

BTW on a different note, are Pakistani’s free to define freedom, define their set of human rights, and the priority among all their definitions without the help of the west (and the desi westeners). And btw, do we let children deside their freedom, animals their freedom, and so on. Whatever you do it should be at least consistent.

Concerning what Ali Says @ 16:35: We should be brushing up our history of the word “autarchy”.

Sadiq, you have taken words out of my heart.

I am anguished as much at our fate today. It is in this anguish that I wrote the previous piece at 12:32 pm.

You have hit the nail on the head. Let somebody here respond to this. So truly describes our trajectory. Just the opposite what Jinnah had in mind.

1st of all Happy Independence to all my Pakistani brothers and sisters.

Now coming to the point : We are free but in order to maintain the freedom we have become captives yet again.

We say we are free but still we have to make our moves according to the will of a foreign country.

Anyways all i can say is that this young Nation is tryin its level best to survive as it has so many odds to tackle at a time.

Concerning what Sana Rasul Says @ 12:55:

I don’t think it is either safe or healthy for any people to hail their leaders with blind adulation. Closing the door on criticism of a leader is the same as murdering that leader. All our problems began when our ancestors found themselves blindly hailing Jinnah when in fact all the dirty work was in fact being done by a lot of poor people whom nobody wants to remember or talk about every Aug 14th.

To be Pakistanized means
Ikrar bil lassan
ikrar bil kalab
To be Pakistani by tongue and heart.
It also means by words as well as deeds.

Not at all! I believe Pakistan’s sovereignty is compromised largely because of USA presence and intervention in this region.

For all who do not like this country or are always finding fault with it – LEAVE! We do not want you here! For those who love Pakistan lets all do our bit for this country. Pakistan Zindabad! Happy Independence Day.

Happy independence day everyone….

Well as far as the rich ma is concerned, he is free, absolutely! He can go where he wants to, twist law for himself and even “create” opportunity for himself… but for poor this independence is just geographical… he has to sell his independence to his master, everyday!

We need a free judiciary and free media (both are moving towards this direction) to get real freedom… without these we cant imagine having a absolute freedom… oh yes, one more thing we need desperately to get actual and real freedom… INDEPENDENT foreign policy… which unfortunately we don’t have!

To all my brothers & sisters 62nd INDEPENDENCE DAY MUBARIK HO.

The fact and reality is this we are not a free nation but we are still a slave either by Politicians or by some other countries (Americans or Britishers, Saudi Arabians or Europeans).

We need centuries to be a free nation.

@AAK

Sartre

Essence of Sartre is “God is dead and Man is free”

Faith and Freedom again are different layers… and I hope you can figure out where each of the layer would be.

And if “god is dead and man is free” which I am sure is free as in Afganistaan , man would need a very Godly understanding. …hmmm….

This is to dear Rija, that Sacrifices in 1947 were matchless to challenges you have mentioned. Are we free, I don’t agree to some extent. Everything that happen in Pakistan is somehow subjected to foreign influence. First step have long been achieved of having a country of our own. Now working towards it maximum liberation can only be achieved by depending least on other countries.

I feel sad to say that we’re a failed state.

We have not based this country on the fundamentals of true Islam. Which is peace, tolerance and justice.

We blame our politicians and leaders and not ourselves.

We’re a bunch of hypocrites.

I have a cousin who offers Salah five times a day and at the end of the day, he sells pirated DVDs of Indian movies. He prints pirated Dvds and sells them here and also through Dubai.

My uncle calls himself a devout Moslem with long beard. And I have never seen him speak truth once in his lifetime. He is lazy to say the least. he has beaten my aunt more than I have beaten my dog.

My friends call themselves Muslims and they hide whiskey and rum in their refrigerators.

We have an education system that teaches us false history, wrong facts to us.

We cannot boast of anything that’s being manufactured in Pakistan.

We produce so many children saying that it’s God’s gift. Deep inside we know that we only want to increase the population of Muslims.

We as a country have always taken the side of everything that’s wrong.

We call ourselves the citadel of Islam, while in reality, Muslims from the Arab world look down upon us.

We feel proud that we’re defeating Taliban, but the end of the day, we are giving arms to tribes and local Lashkars. have we ever thought that the same Lashkar will be a formidable group of terrorists one day?

We kill our own Muslim brothers. Some of us even dare call these people non-Muslims. Shias, Ahmadis are as much Muslims as we are.

We Punjabis treat Mohajirs as inferiors. Mohajirs treat Pakhtuns as inferior.

We never acted as one country, nor are we acting now.

We call ourselves Muslims and most of us don’t even bathe everyday. Isn’t cleanliness our foremost duty towards our body and others?

Our leaders have been lying to us and cheating us from day one. So, why haven’t we realized that we should take things in our hands. try to bring about positive changes in our homes and surroundings.

America kai Ghulamo ko, Bartania sai Azadi Mubarik! Enjoy.

Not yet!

A country which has been under the control of the ‘Ruling Elites’ (civil or military),a country where the ‘have nots’ which are the real majority are living under the worst social and economical conditions, facing all kinds of injustices; a country where moral values are being ignored for the sake of power and fame; a country where millions of children are forced to ‘child labour;’ a country where gang rape is a daily routine; a country where hundreds of thousands are rotting in the prisons due to the FIR written by the most corrupt officials; a country where every department is full of corrupt officials; a country where even educational curriculum is separate for the ‘future rulers and those would be subordinates;’ a country where majority of the public has to drink contaminated water; a country where electricity supply have become a nightmare; a country where smaller provinces like Balochistan are facing terrible discrimination’ a country where millions of our youth are unemployed;’ a country where extremism is at the peak; a country where ‘dreaming for the woman empowerment’ is even a sin…. How Can We Say “We are an Independent Nation?

But the debate has to be “How Can We see ‘The Real Independence’”? The answer is ” until unless We The People confess that we have committed blunders by choosing wrong people, its not them but us who are responsible for this… and by confessing this Until unless we create Solidarity and Harmony among us and produce leadership out of the ‘real sons of the soil’ we will stay as slaves!

While living in the Netherlands, I wish If I could explain abut my personal experiences of the democracy in this country and that of the democratic institutions. A country where Institutions are strong not the personalities. Where Constitution/law of the country is prim not the Prime Ministers or Presidents. A democracy where every single individual is assured for the ‘Level Playing Field’ in all walks of life!

My dear brothers and sisters, let’s pray to our Lord, the Almighty Allah to help us to become One Nation to fights for the rights of our motherland and the have nots.

Salam,

Satre the French philosopher remarked that man is condemned to be free. Whether we like it or not we are free, but as for the consequences of practising this freedom such as academic or religious they are dangerous.

Freedom is always available it is just what the consequences of choosing that freedom are.

Freedom is in essence a partner of faith. Without freedom what meaning does faith have? The Quran says in many places affirming freedom and faith (Q2:256, Q10:99). With freedom can come faith. Hence religious freedom is the most joyous of combinations.

The Iranian reformists who are currently being harassed in Iran, propose this very paradigm. In Pakistan there needs to be a movement similar to the Iranian reformists, which can construct new notions of faith, religious law and pluralistic inclusion.

We need to revisit our founding figures; Allama Iqbal and Quaid-e-Azam explore their ideas, which cannot be found anywhere currently drowned out by idiocy and denial.

Iqbal did not propose an Islamic State, he proposed a ‘’spiritual democracy” (Reconstruction of religious Thought in Islam), and Jinnah proposed an objectively secular state (where religion and institutions are separate), whilst deploring subjective secularism( which is when religion is cast out of all public life and culture, hence the secularisation of the mind).

If Pakistanis are to progress today an atmosphere of self-criticism needs to engulf Pakistan in totality before we can even begin to discuss the answers and solutions. A culture of dignity and humility arises from self-criticism, we become humbled, appreciate our fallibility and come to realise and appreciate our human nature.

To avert from self-criticism inspires a culture of hypocrisy, deceit and betrayal, and these traits our abhorred by religious traditions and common sense. Hypocrisy is perhaps the most hated of traits in the Islamic traditions, and for good reason as well. It’s a stumbling block for progress and change. There is nothing ‘unIslamic’’, or ‘’Western’ about self-criticism, it is simply a social process to understand our predicament in order to search for the answers.

Hi all Pakistan people as your neighbour i have a duty to wish all my Pakistani brothers and sisters a happy and wonderful independence day… let us take a pledge to join hands together and help each other in the times of need… long live India and Pakistan.

@ Nosheen Abbas , Keti Zilgish

It gives me lot of hope when I come across thoughts of Rajneesh / Osho here. Because any discussion on freedom would be incomplete w/o reference to thoughts of Osho. Osho himself would cite from works of various scholars / realized people. Viz Khalil Gibran. Gibran says your children are not just your children but bows into the future. As per Osho the best way of upbringing children is in communes and not families. But looking at some of the communes (you know what I mean m…) I get shudders in my spine. Anyway Dil bahlanae kae liyae Ghalib yae Khayal achaa hae …

Agree totally with Nadeem F. Paracha (@ 12:55).
It certainly is a wonderful sight watching people of Swat finally managing to celeberate Independence day without fear.

Independence to some in Pakistan implies as below;

Lawyers marching the streets as layabouts, challenge the rule of law under the leadership of the Chief Justice of Pakistan.

Spread of Islamic extremism in preference to secularism and policy of “live and let live.”

Women to hide faces behind burqa and waste their talent and energy doing nothing.

Politicians to be vindictive toward each other for personal gain. Waste their energies that could be employed for constructive purpose such as generating of electricity, clear drinking water and food.

Blame USA, Israel and India for their own failings of planning, implementation, management of State affairs.

No education, implementation of scheme to control population growth.

Accept American, foreign aids from all donors and bash Americans for drone attacks even beneficial in the fight of terrorism.

Talk more and do less in all aspect of economic and social reform badly needed.

Waste money stockpiling nuclear weopons and not reaching amicable settlement of Kashmir.

Not recognising Israel as a vibrant Statefor religion prejudices.

I think we are over simplifying the words ‘freedom’ and ‘independence’ here. Freedom is directly proportional to ‘choice’ and ‘options’. In a country where more than half of your population is illiterate, women are suppressed and a myopic definition of a quasi-militant religion is the voice of the ‘collective wisdom’…then, please, we are not free.

Freedom defined within a context of private parties, luxury cars, selective justice or a proliferation of (largely) melodramatic media channels is not freedom at all. Your common man is pressed to provide a meal from onions and tomatoes at Rs40 to the kg (forget chicken and meat) and pay Rs3000+ in electricity bills for less-than-half a day’s worth of electricity; for him debating the nation’s freedom and independence becomes purely an academic task.

A ‘responsible’ Authority (democractic government, dictatorship or oligarchy [feudals]) needs to provide the fundamentals to the people. Once supplied of the basics can we start exercising any form of intellectual or physical freedoms.

Ahem. Durand Line + Radcliffe Line = “choosing a new homeland”? And isn’t there something incongruous about the phrase “new homeland”?

As for the much-touted “freedom”, let us ponder once again the sagacity of Bertrand Russell:

“Exponents of free will maintain that a man can, by dint of will power, prevent himself from becoming drunk. But they do not maintain that after a man is drunk he can say ‘British Constitution’ as well as when he is sober.”

Independence and freedom from what?

I belong to a minority religion “Christian”, still feel that there lot to be done for real independence where minority rights are protected in real means. Gojra was a serious incident and minorities are not treated equally when it come to daily norm of life, which includes work places and education institutes. I personally experience it in Pakistan.

After moving to the West I start realizing that what really independence is? I think it is not any more about particular religion/race/ethnicity, it is all about humanity, equality, common sense and above all tolerance and mutual respect.

Mainstream media especially Urdu channels need to do lot to stop hatred/propaganda which some time defy common sense, logics and reasoning.

Happy Independence Day to every one.

- Political victimization
- Bomb blast
- Military operations
- Load shedding
- Terrorist activities

se bach jaane wale tamam bachay-kuchay pakistaniyon ko 14 august mubarak!

Salaam and Azadi Mubarak to everyone!

However my friends – realistically we have a long way to go yet for full azaadi. Jinnah may have brought us Pakistan – but it was lost as soon as he died. We need to sort ourselves out first of all – and stop blaming others for the situation in Pakistan. Only then can we control internal and external threats. Your prime example being our current leaders – and you expect this country to flourish – be serious. Look how well India is doing – good on them – they are thinking about their country before themselves – we should emulate them. Sorry for being slightly negative – but the truth is always hard to handle.

Think, because you have lost these 62 years you ‘ll have to work worth 124 years in next 62 years to realize what you wanted.. And even more if yo want to get ahead.. Tough task, but get your long term plans in place asap and all the best then! Are you ready?

Cya, we too got a lot of catching up to do.

- Parosi mulk se

On January 6, 1941, in an address also known as the Four Freedoms speech, FDR proposed four points as fundamental freedoms humans “everywhere in the world” ought to enjoy:

1. Freedom of speech and expression
2. Freedom of religion
3. Freedom from want
4. Freedom from fear

With each passing generation we interpret the meaning of these freedoms differently, but what has not changed is that every generation strives for attaining these freedoms. Unfortunately, with the way things are in today’s world, where nations are no longer equals of one another in humanity, where we feel our social standings and positions give us the right to a freedom more than others, Pakistan is far from free. We have given into fear to an extent where our voices don’t mean anything, even to us, our wants and desires blind us such that we consider it our right to go on trespassing on others’ freedoms. Through our veins flows the blood of those who sacrificed everything for a land where no man is wronged, a land where it where poverty is not a crime, where morals and principles govern the actions of individuals and society as a whole, where the superiority of mind and education makes one responsible for those less fortunate (as opposed to making one vain and proud). 62 years on and we have come a long way: but there’s still a long road ahead for us. It is the collective power and effort of mere individuals that will realise the dream that was once Pakistan. We did once, we can do it again.

Happy Independence Day to all..

This is a momentous day in the annals of the world history, commemorating 14th August, 1947, when Pakistan was born after lots of struggle and hardship. After more than 62 years of Independence still the goal of freedom looks far …yes its true that you’re country has had to go through a lot of adversity all these years, but always comes through unscathed.

The credit goes to its people who have always given there blood, sweat and endless sacrifices to keep there beloved motherland strong and prosperous.

No doubt there are trying times ahead, but since when have you been afraid of difficulties. Adversity brings the very best out of your country. Countless times you have proved others wrong by bouncing for the back, and every time stronger and stronger.

Hats off to the people of this beautiful country. Keep the dream of your founding father alive… and keep marching to the tunes of time.

Once again a Happy Independence Day… long live your country.

From Karachi to Kansas (USA). Long Journey, spent almost 15 years here but never forgot my motherland. Today here in Kansas,(USA), us American Pakistanis celebrate our independence Day with joy, happiness and pride at being Pakistani.

Azaadi Mubarak – Pakistan Zindabad!

Independence is a big blessing but unfortunately, Pakistan is not independent country. After such a history of suffering, ninety five percent Pakistani are still suffering and worse off !. It was only,a change of ruling class – only the difference is in appearance. That ruling class had white skins but this class had a white heart who are selling our skin and blood in the hands of World bank and IMF.

Its traditional for the people of Pakistan to remember their heroes, this day, by holding the Green Flag, otherwise- the eyes are weeping and the heart are bleeding!

God Bless Pakistan!

Hope next couple of years is about Pakistan thriving but for now I am happy enough with surviving. Wasn’t so sure about that at the start of the year with the extremist wackos on the rampage.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Says @ 13:08:

Thanx a lot. I just googled ‘Osho’ & do hope to get a chance to benefit fro it.

Independence, freedom, dailyness with its ups and downs, …. Just pause for an instant to see and feel where we are, where we have to go and how to go there. Nations are built on vision reached with single-mindedness of leadership and society.

Since the direct control of colonial power and the ouster of Muslim dynasty from subcontinent politics, Muslims confronted three biggest challenges in their way. One was the achievement of an independent state for Muslims so as to practice their independent islamic social, political and economic system. By the grace of God almighty we got this aim with the successful leadership of our leaders.

The two aims which have not been achieved yet fully are the sustainability and development of the state. We should work hard to protect our independent homeland and struggle hard to develop our society. We should prove our unity in the comity of nations the world over.

T. Wien Says @ 12:11: well put

Freedom. I agree with what Nosheen wrote but I want to bring about a new aspect.

Agreed there are millions of unfortunate people who do not get their rights like we do. We, the educated class, have freedom to say and write and to express our views. But it is important to realize that this freedom comes with a responsibility too. The unfortunates have their rights on US who have freedom to provide them with what they lack. For a minute just think about it. I believe that Allah has made the system as such. Every person is not self-sufficient. He needs the some one at every point in life to do a certain chore or anything. So when we look at those poor people, people who have less freedom, let us not think they are as such because of the status they belong to but think of it as we are not doing enough to better their lives. We are responsible for their state today. We will be questioned about it in the DoJ when Allah will ask us when He gave us the means to change, why didn’t we help the ones who needed the change?

Secondly let us not see West and compare our freedom to theirs. Let us think of solutions within our capacities. What they have we don’t. What we have they don’t.

Pakistan Zindabad!

I agree with Nosheen vis-a-vis Huma. Yes, parents do make a difference. If kids are taught tolerance in their homes instead of hatred from anyone that is different – we would have far fewer terrorists in the country. And that would be a difference at a national level.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Says @ 11:20:

Agreed, we require unconditioning. That means unschooling the educated too. Our schools are at least as authoritarian as our mosques and families are. The Arabs colonized us long before the English decided to try their luck. We have no other destiny other than to leave the Arabs (Ancient Greek word for barbarian!) behind.

Well, one question – what is freedom in today’s context?

No one can explain with proper reason. Millions of People across the land can not get even good drinking water, a square meal, proper shelter or clothing etc then what do you do with such freedom and the big speeches of the so called Leaders.

There is hardly any one in the society to be called as Leader of the people/for the people and by the people. But they are really “off the people/Far the people and buy the people”. Least bothered about the hungers of millions.

I can not see any “freedom” when we see the tortures on commoner – man or woman of the society. Impossible to visualise any freedom in the years to come even in its true sense.

When Pakistanis go abroad why do they discard pakistan, why do they not understand that whatever the situation, Pakistan is your home, Pakistan gave you what u have even if it that spinning toy we all grew up with, and why in Pakistan before saying Salam they say ’show me the money’ to expatriates?

Zilgish: True story about the ‘bloating’ – in context to your parents comment, you ever read Osho?

A definition of ‘Freedom’, at the cost of oversimplification, is a set of rights. Similarly ‘independence’ is the ability to act or react (or not act or react) at ones own (sic) volition. But to enjoy these rights/abilities there are certain obligations/responsibilities we have toward ourselves, our family, our community, our country, our neighbor nations and the rest of the world.

The obligations that we are not meeting cannot be effected only through patriotism, leadership, spiritual ardor, external benevolence, external threat… we need some well-defined structures in place to educate and control behavior of individuals, communities and organizations. Now ‘structure and controls’ can become antithetical to ‘freedom and independence’. But the ability to continually master these two sets of seemingly opposing and yet complimentary ideas/forces will define the quality and sustainability of freedom and independence.

With vantage point – to answer the questions “Are we free yet?” – we must first answer:

A) Are we clear about our true obligations yet? (right educations, introspection, ability to question authority…)
B) Are we meeting our true obligations yet? (sense of duty, respect for the law, civic sense, abiding contracts, taking responsibility…)
C) Are we tolerant to others definition of these obligations? (secular, accommodating, can live with differences, selectively forget the past…)
D) Are we willing to be open to the fact that some perceived obligations may not be good obligations? (provincial v cosmopolitan, accept and adapt to change…)

If “not yet” then we are not free yet.

When we don’t recognize our obligations or don’t have the ability to meet our obligations, we tend to succumb to dogma and demagoguery relinquishing our freedom and independence to be free and independent.

Wish you all Pakistanis a very happy and prosperous future on this 62nd National Day.

Dawn bloggers — thank you for joining us this morning! We look forward to having you back online at 6:00 P.M. PST today.

Happy Independence Day!

Lets make sure that never again will there be a shortage of atta (flour). Where;s our Tata company? will vote for the religious parties if they rid of the problems in providing basic health facilities in all provinces.

I think the struggle of independence still goes on. We are yet to (as the blog proves) get our ideology of freedom right. We have to realize that freedom is not something we can copy from one country to the other. Each country (excluding the basic human rights) should have its own values of freedom.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Says @ 11:17: The ‘bloating’ begins in the Mosques.

Talha — Your argument is based on the premise that Pakistan EXISTS, the question of deserving to exist doesn’t require dissection.

What I can’t understand is how when the constituents of Federation don’t want to live in it, and are only put together by use of force, is it right for a state to exist?

Hello. Sorry I am late.
All I’ll say is that the most heartening news on this year’s Independence Day was this:
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/12-jubilation+in+swat+over+newly+won+liberation–bi-12
A real turn-around – at least for a day.

I was wondering…. could one person alone make a difference?

Perhaps yes…if we are all Quaids, if we all have his spirit of selflessness and dedication to the cause of Pakistan. Let’s all try individually and then come together when we know we are all Pakistanis, without any gender or racial discrimination. Let’s erase our differences!

Also @ Naushad

What makes you think Islam and democracy are not compatible? Islam actually encourages democratic principles and seeing as even as early as the Umayyad and Abbassid Caliphs openly flaunted Islamic teachings with their harems and other extra Islamic indulgences, I doubt you can convince many that there actually IS an Islamic political system. Democracy comes as close to it as any other!

@ Sana Saleem

You’re raising great points. I think there’s so much insecurity amongst the people in Pakistan who are most deserving of emancipation (this includes minorities, certain women, and even residents of places like Lyari who have to be governed by ‘dakaits’ and not politicians) that they rarely stand up and ask for what they need.

If there were wider movements to challenge the status quo, to not let a few rupees in compensation money, or a few buntings, gloss over the fact that there is very little representation or freedom, then maybe this country would be a bit different today.

Concerning what Sana Rasul Says @ 11:17: Freedom is snatched, not granted.

Jinnah created Pakistan for the Muslims of Indian subcontinent (and NOT in the name of Islam). He also declared that all the minorities shall be given full freedom to practice their religion. This is called a secular approach.

Unfortunately, this did not happen and the country followed exactly the opposite path. As long as people of Pakistan continue to show blind “love” to the religion and Jihad without using brains, this country cannot be considered a free and independent country.

I wonder why 14th August is celebrated. On this day, people should wonder what elements caused this nation to lag behind despite of having the best of talents? Why no progress was made in the field of science, technology and education?

Shazia Khan,

I think that as long as someone is economically productive, obeying their law and not infringing on the rights of others, they are making a positive contribution to society.

And yes, airing our views on this blog in a congenial, civilized manner IS concrete action for the betterment of this country.

Let’s at least find ways for orphans to contribute to society and lets go to each department of government and plead for change, no corruption, and lets walk around telling people not to scam the government.

Shazia! good point-

exercising freedom as a Pakistani: what about the lawyers movement?

Shiv:
The future of South Asia and South Asians lie in breaking with the past. We must get out of the shadow cast by history. History can also enlighten, provided we write good history and learn its lessons. Let the eldest in the South Asian family show the way. Warmest felicitations on India’s independence.

@ Naushad

I hear you, well said. I ascribe by your definition of true freedom: liberation from worldly desires, very Sufi-esque.

However, since we are talking about more than just individuals, such a definition will not suffice. It is all of Pakistan we address, Muslims and non-Muslims, rich and poor, educated and illiterate!

Shaz, I’ve been able to paint my face with moon and star as a free Pakistani.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Say @ 11:57: Freedom is only that which is Marvellous. It has No Limits. Lets just brush up on our “Alice in Wonderland” and all that “Brer Rabbit” has to offer. There are infinite ways the world has devised of sabotaging the petty-minded conceit of those who normally pass off as parents. Long Live Anarchy!

Somehow, I have always felt quoting Jinnah leaves one in a very very difficult position. Jinnah’s views about structure of the Pakistani state were always vague. A rather clear example can be the much debated secular-theocratic state.

Are the religious elite using their energy and voice to root out the shameful nuisance of fake medicines, doctors, organ so called donations, across Pakistan.

Thanks for being calm so far. Why chew on manikchand or smoke cigarettes, have some naswar instead.

Samreen Asad @ 12:30:

If we could forswear such superficial classifications. Our common humanity must be drummed – no, SEARED – into our minds. But, sadly, the human race, its stupidity, self-destructive obstinacy and refusal to accept reason/rationale in tow, marches on towards the grim fate we, ourselves, are sealing for ourselves.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/06/world/asia/06justice.html?scp=7&sq=Sabrina%20Tavernise&st=cse

Pakistanis are free! Yes they are free to cheat, to rob, to loot, to corrupt, to falsify, to grab,to give cheap slogans, and waste millions on wastage of paper flags and emblems, while the ordinary people in Pakistan are making suicide and vending their kids due to poverty and because of lack of basic necessities of daily life. If this is you call freedom then I will say good bye to it. Salams.

On this day all we can wish for Pakistan is peace. Prosperity is a dream that we all have yet to achieve, but unfortunately there will be none without the aforementioned peace.

Samreen your right – there is a lot that we can do in action instead of wasting time talking about it. After meeting a lot of different groups of youngsters I feel pretty confident to say that their on their toes about wanting to make a positive contribution to Pakistan… there very pro active!

I’d also like to point out- that all elite of privileged people shouldn’t be demonized – there many who are giving a lot to the country… in fact I think they not very well represented in the media (especially outside Pakistan)… but coming back to what you said, there’s no better way to make a sustainable change unless we start from ourselves, our own outlook and to recognize the need for responsibility for who we are and as Pakistanis.

We are not technically “free” until each of us feels empowered enough to act upon what we consider to be positive and right. If we sit around talking about what we wish were true but feel powerless to actually make significant changes in the “system” or the “way things are here” we are not free.

So again, what examples do you have of concrete steps you have taken lately to exercise your freedom as a Pakistani (except talk about the things that frustrate you?)

Concerning what T. Wien Says @ 11:13: Wonderful comment. We must not ignore the effect of climate on our collective unconscious.

@ Salman

It doesn’t really matter who you ask the question to. Pakistan exists and there has never been a question of ‘deserving to exist’. You can ask them whether they would like to be a part of Pakistan or not, whether they are happy or not but to ask them if it deserves to exist is not something that can be taken seriously.

@ Keti Zilgish @ Nadeem

Pakistanis do understand what it is like to be a minority since the majority of them ARE treated like a minority by our leaders. Despite the improvements, justice is still an ingredient that we sorely miss in our ‘land of the pure’.

There are innumerable issues that question our freedom today. We see the victims of Gojra hoisting black flags, the children of missing people of Pakistan putting up exhibitions saying “No jashne azadi for the missing people”. I think this is alarming situation that needs to be looked into and acted upon. It goes out to prove that most of us will not be plodding along with mere celebratory gestures. For me this means that people actually acknowledge the day as an important historic event with all its essence. This is excatly why they choose to reflect this day to highlight how they feel being a part of the community.

The gesture by the victims of Gojra is a simple yet very strong notion that “They will not celebrate independence day because they don’t feel free to practice, they aren’t safe and they don’t feel as much as a part of a community, as they deserve to be”

I see hope even in these condemnations, hope and faith that people have finally understood the importance of being empowered. That a lot among us will not do or say things for the heck of it.

These gestures are symbols that many in our society are aware of their rights, and that for them the independence day means a lot more than just a celebratory gesture. Celebrating independence day is not only hoisting flags, painting green and enchanting slogans it goes way deeper to the very roots of ‘freedom and right to exist (co-exist) as a society.’ Lets hope we all realize that soon.

True freedom can only be achieved once a person has liberated his/her self from materialistic desires.

Such an objective requires one to assume an identity; one that cannot be altered at any cost. No standard for such an identity exists except that of a True Muslim, as Companions of the Prophet (RA) were.

Unless and until we assume that identity, we cannot wrest the reigns of our nation from feudal, warlords, corrupt bureaucrats, current genre of politicians in our midst; and the external influences supporting these elements.

We can only achieve true freedom once we have our own God-given system. The borrowed concepts of Western socio-economic-political systems like Communism and Democracy have already failed them. Perpetuating a failed experiment here will only exacerbate our predicament as a nation.

Be a Momin, be a Pakistani, and implement Islam in the footsteps of our Prophet (PBUH) and his blessed Khulafa-e-Rashidun (RA), and Pakistan will rise faster than rocket can reach it’s maximum altitude.

http://www.albalagh.net/general/0096.shtml

Jinnah, in his Presidential Address delivered at the Annual Session of the All-India Muslim League, Delhi, on April 24, 1943, said:

Here, I should like to give a warning to the landlords and capitalists who have flourished at our expense by a system which is so vicious, which is so wicked and which makes them so selfish that it is difficult to reason with them. (Tremendous applause). The exploitation of the masses has gone into their blood. They have forgotten the lessons of Islam. Greed and Selfishness have made these people subordinate to the interests of others in order to fatten themselves. It is true we are not in power today. You go anywhere to the countryside. I have visited villages. There are millions and millions of our people who hardly get one meal a day. Is these civilisations this aim of Pakistan (cries of no, no) Do you visualise that millions have been exploited and cannot get one meal a day. If that is the Idea of Pakistan, I would not have it. (Cheers). If they are wise they will have to adjust themselves to the new modern conditions of life. If they won’t, God helps them: we shall not help them. (Hear, hear; renewed cheers and applause.)

In response to the following

“Keti Zilgish Says:
August 14th, 2009 at 12:20″:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCG4qryy1Dg

For Mr. Zaheer and others who can see how badly power is abused (not just in Pakitan but) worldwide:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chVD8NprL3E

How did Karachi airport not become a stopover for commercial and passenger airlines, with its logical and strategic location to refuel, to inspect, wash, vacuum, replace windshield wipers etc… all under international acclaimed monitoring, the answer is create infighting or defame it so no international platform, no income for Karachi hence no income for Pakistan, no future investments…

Happy Independence Day Everyone !!!

You know there is a common problem in alot of people in our society , if there is something wrong we will stand up and shout that YOU did it , we are so used to blaming other people that we fail to answer what have we given to our country? All the elite govt officers , what are they doing except looting the government’s money? Who elected the present President , was it the US? Do we go out and ask if our neighbour is sleeping hungry? How many of us start education from home, like we can at least educate our servants or pay their children’s school fees. right? How many of you would go and donate to a hospital? How many of you will make a line to buy something? How many of you will follow traffic rules?

There have been people who have done extraordinary things , why can’t you? If Punjabi’s dont like the Sindhi , or Shia doesnt like the Sunni , its because of our thinking. When will we stop the discrimination amongst ourselves?

All of you out there Pakistan doesn’t deserve us , we aren’t loyal to our country. Ask yourself what have you given to the country. Yes we should have never been freed because then we would have actually realized how important an independent identity is for us. Start making differences yourself, start from your own house, own your community and before long you will realize we are ONE. WE ARE FREE.

Thanx, Samad.

T. Wien,

It’s true, most sit the CSS exam secure in the belief that once they pass, the income and influence they generate through bribes and abuse of power will set them free – pun intended.

Herculean tasks are often the most rewarding!

As for Obama’s failings, many much better qualified than myself have articulated with facts and figures his shortcomings, that too within a year. He has merely continued the Bush administrations legacy while on the surface promising change (which in itself is a change). He gets far too much fanfare and not enough of his speeches are scrutinized. The contrast between his speech in Paris (which was completely ludicrous) and the one delivered in Cairo is immense. Can’t trust the guy, but I totally get his appeal.

Clarification for Iqbal: this blog is as free as free gets. Not at all in the hands of just a few-its free for all!

Talha, Lets pose this question to a Balochi? Or perhaps a Sindhi Nationalist? An Ahmadi? Or the wretched of this land? Those who make the Pakistan.

Does it even matter for us to decide? I mean you and I are right here arguing in ANGRAIZI. You and I had dinner, breakfast and will have a lunch too. And so long.

What does Pakistan entail for a Pakistani in Lyari, Karachi, or Sanda, Lahore?

Concerning what Nadeem Says @ 11:09: Pakistanis understand very well what it is like to be in a minority but only when they are outside Pakistan. We are simply misguided by the notion that democracy means majority rule whereas democracy actually means respect for the minorities.

Happy Independence Day to all Pakistanis and Indians!

No one can undo the damage that is done by the British to the subcontinent. But we can definitely improve. India takes Pakistan as their No 1 enemy. Same in case of Pakistan. If this view is changed, if people stop blaming each other for every small cracker, we will definitely have peace in the region.

There is lot to learn. May be if things stabilize between us, never know we can have open borders like how European union has where people in south Asia can move for business, studies in any country. India-Pakistan-Nepal-Bhutan-Bangladesh-Srilanka-Maldives. Together we can grow.

And we can do things which WEST doesn’t want us to. America, doesn’t want Asia to get united. Because they are scared of our capabilities.

I dont know what is the future of our countries but definitely if we try something now, our next generation will live in peace.

Right from childhood I am taught Pakistan in our enemy. But when I went to London few years back I met a guy from Pakistan. He was no way different from what I was. We became good friends. I sent him Indian sweets with my friend who traveled to London next. Try to understand, we are enemies when we come to our country. Ask Indians and Pakistanis who live in USA or UK, they live like brothers. Why cant we do the same when we are at home??

Guys, leave the past and look at the future! we both have room to grow, our childhood is over, its time to get settled in life and make good future.

Cheers!
Shiv…

@ Talha @ Salman

The concept of “deserving” to exist is highly misleading and falls under (Moral) Desert (ref: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/desert/)

As Sartre put it, “Existence precedes and rules essence”

Just like this blog, so the fate of Pakistan seems to be in the hands of a few. The feudal lords first, then the military and now the cleric wants to have its bit. Independence to be meaningful must have a broader base. Democracy, its demerits notwithstanding, is the best political system to ensure wide participation. All anti-democratic forces must be eliminated.

http://www.viewsonnews.net/articles/South%20East%20Asia/Pakistan%20Army/undercover-chaos.html

Mr. Zaheer:

What is extremely frustrating to note is that the elite of this country has had (until now) no interest in running the country. We would all much rather go abroad for our education, and then stay there to pursue better, safer lives for our children in foreign lands. The brain drain and selfishness is despicable. Also, since we spoilt brats are so materialistic, a civil servant’s salary (peanuts – is it any wonder, then, that bureaucrats bribe/are corrupt?)doesn’t lure anyone into the actual policy-making organ of the government. Our bureaucratic machine is vastly over-staffed, divisive and ideologically scattered, needs to be oiled, and (most egregriously) recruitments/appointment of even the 20 grade and above officers are politically-charged.

So, while many of our youth would jump at tha chance of setting up a new meritocratic, purely democratic political party, or perhaps be part of the Cabinet/Government of Pakistan, it seems like too Herculean a task to bring even a scintilla of change to the starting operating mechanisms of our country.

That Obama is all talk is your opinion, and I will respect that; but mine is this: You cannot get anything better that the Obama team. They’re young, they’re dedicated, they’re innovative, they’re trying the best they CAN (in these most trying of times) to wrap their head around everything. They haven’t yet delivered on all of their campaign promises, and some of their high-falutin, highly-ambitious promises have now been tempered with reality and on the ground information.

Give them time.

Happy Independence Day!
Yeah, we’re free!

As I send all Pakistanis my greetings, I hope and wish the political organization there brings in reality independence to every male and female citizen.This involves all rights of the citizens made available for experiencing. I wish peace and prosperity for all on this earth for the short time we live without treading the toes of others.

Jiye Pakistan.
Kulamarva Balakrishna

@ Salman,

Who is anyone to judge whether any country or people deserve to exist or not? It exists, therefore it must deserve to exist. No country is free from human rights violations and corruption. Why do you think there is the need for affirmative action in the US?

There is no criteria to make judgements about ‘deserving to exist’. I would not have been too amused if a dear friend asked me that question, probably have shot it right back at em!

Concerning what Huma Says @ 11:05: Precisely! When our family lives are totalitarian our collective lives can be nothing less. See a film called “Sweet Movie” directed by Dusan Makavejev.

Concerning what Sana Rasul Says @ 11:04: We should have the humility to want and accept the backup and cooperation of non-Pakistanis because if we don’t we’re going to in any case be forced more into debt.

A dear friend asked me yesterday, ‘Does Pakistan deserve to exist?’

I couldn’t come out with anything but patriotic blabber.

Perhaps the question should be posed to Balochis or Shias or Sunnis or Ahmadis or women.

T. Wien,

Perhaps we need to start at the grass roots and work our way up. While educating the elite that it is in their best interest to give something back, that it is in their interest to educate the masses etc. is important, its something most of them have considered and rejected. Nothing better than to start a truly democratic party of your own and work on the common folk. Why not start right here? Plenty of youth out there that want to see real change (not just talk like Obama) and one of the best ways of ensuring that is to begin a dynasty-free party that is truly democratic within itself (no lifetime chairpersons here).

Then again, I wonder whether people even have the freedom to vote. Free and fair elections don’t mean entire villages aren’t bribed or pressured to vote a certain way. Perhaps greater transparency is what we need to boost freedom in all its forms.

Keti Zilgish – not to change the mind set – rather the atmosphere one grows up in has a huge impact on the people we become. To suggest that parents have absolutely no affect on their children especially during the time of adolescence would be incorrect – but yes the freedom to grow in to (hopefully) mature, independent and reasoned individuals would require an abandonment of the ‘know it all’ air… the world then would indeed be a better place.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Says @ 11:03:

“We must leap from the realm of necessity to the realm of freedom.” —–
Pyotr Alekseyevich Kropotkin

@Samad

Sadly, I don’t even think we’re at a seven… most of our rural population doesn’t get to debate anything amongst themselves at election time. They just vote with the zamindar.

Though still not having the vote, you are at liberty (and are given the right) to enter into the discussions of the 10,000, to try to persuade them to adopt various policies and to treat you and themselves in a certain way. They then go off to vote to decide upon policies covering the vast range of their powers.

http://www.duke.edu/web/philsociety/taleofslave.html

Sadruddin Merchant: But what is Pakistanized?

Well we have been blaming people who are corrupt and think they are above the law, whereas we should also evaluate ourselves. How many of us have bribed traffic police men in order to avoid a ticket for under age driving?

These are small things that might change the mindset of the people who run the system.

How many businesses are registered in this country, which might help the country’s economy grow? And then we say we are not FREE! As a result people who cant bribe are victims of torture or put on sale!

In order to attain equal freedom for all we have to let go of some tooo.

Happy Independence Day !

For those who wish Pakistan a prosperous and peaceful future it is straining to see that despite the secular dreams of Father of Nation Pakistan remains a Religion Dominated Society. There was nothing wrong with it. However, in a high flying way religious ideologies infiltrated into those fields which had nothing to with divine worship and corroded the fundamental fabric of a modern society. To watch it was heart rending. Today Pakistani society appears to be obsessed with the cosmetics of religion and distancing itself with the spirit of Islam. Pakistan seems to be entrapped in the vicious circle of religious fanaticism and regionalism. Unless the superfluous patina of parochialism is shed off there could be no genuine economic and social freedom.

Haha yeah Huma’s efforts are being lost at the cost of our desire for (chaotic) freedom here.

Are we really Free?
At the time of British Raj we were physically enslaved.
Now we are worse than that. We are mentally enslaved. Each one of us want to be Americanized or Europeanized, we do not ever want to be Pakistanized.
May Allah help these slaves.

One huge hindrance to freedom being the order of the day in Pakistan, and the rule of law is the abuse of power by those who govern us: dictators impose martial laws with impunity, politicians are deported then begged to come back, teenagers are appointed as heads of our largest, secular political parties, mullahs try to escape mosque sieges clad in burqas, the entire judiciary is hand-cuffed in two fell swoops, coups we have become inured to, the ISI still reins supreme and cannot be held accountable by any one person; it’s been meddling with our politics since its inception and it’s political wing was only clipped when such a reform was deemed necessary and favourable for the agency’s reputation in the common man’s eyes.

How can we expect Pakistanis (and Pakistan) to be ‘free’ if we surrender our basic natural and political rights to these intelligence officials, these grossly corrupt politicians. How can this most militarily-institutionalized of nations ever make something of herself?

A good philosophical question by Nozick :

http://www.duke.edu/web/philsociety/taleofslave.html

Even at 9, I doubt if one is truly free.

Naveen: Do I believe Swat is free of militants? No. But I do believe it is free-er of militants that it was a few months ago – I don’t see Maulana Fazlullah and his band of militants stringing up bodies in town squares, I don’t see Sufi Mohammad types addressing thousands of people on why democracy is ‘haram’, I don’t see schools being blown up on a *regular* basis.

Concerning what Nosheen Abbas Says: If only parents can have the humility to change their own ‘mindsets’ and not the arrogance to assume that they have either the power or the knowledge to successfully change the ‘mindsets’ of their children the world would have freedom way beyond its wildest dreams and desires.

Freedom and Independence are concepts poles apart. “Independence” is quit a useless term.

Freedom is :
From
and For.
We are not free. From ignorance , exploitation, circumstances. We are not free from , and to be Free For (i.e. realization) is a destination almost out of sight. About Ignorance / Education: could we start with literacy to begin with. Could we leave “Religion” as an Individual pursuit. How could we be free… if to a child we give our distorted versions of reality. We keep on sullying the slates of Child… a child that came with immense possibilities… How would you feel if you understand reality inside out (or outside in)… and then look at our petty affairs?

Alas, in Pakistan you used to have the freedom to import endangered tigers and provide them with several air conditioners to ensure their comfort even as the rest of the country languished in perpetual darkness. Poor kid had to part with his beloved pet! where is his freedom I ask you? Maybe it will return if daddy or uncle win back the throne!

Cyril, do you seriously believe the people of Swat are free from militants?

Let’s not focus this talk on Gender thing as I think it is clear that Gender Equality is the basic right that has been bestowed on us by our religion Islam. However, since nature made Men and Women separate, it also give them separate fields of expertise. A man cant give birth to a child and feed him and hence its the birth duty of women. And so there are duties of men that women are not expected to do.

We have our leader Quaid who was supported by his sister Fatima Jinnah in the creation of this country and we have our Prophet Muhammad (SAW)who got his initial support from his wife Khadija (May Allah bless them all).

The best solution to all these problem is a Justice System based on Constitution and not on Personal vendettas. I hope the Judges are reading my comments.

@ Keti Zilgish

I love the analogy with migratory birds. That’s just poetic.

Many of our teachers failed the NTS test held a few days ago. How do you think we can impart ’standard education’ then?

I was merely referring to the anthropologically-proven fact that – ironically enough – women are often the enforcers and guardians of patriarchy within the household. Mothers are the primary socializers of their children, and it is they who help to instill misogynistic mindsets for their children.

My point, basically, was that you can’t simply blame men for the oppression of women. The answer lies elsewhere, in the broader cultural attitudes and norms shaped by a variety of factors, including education, traditions and religion.

I see a lot of emphasis on the importance of education here. I agree that it solves many problems, and the lack of it is the basis for some of our most formidable ones. But what does it mean to be educated in Pakistan where the history of the country including its freedom from colonial rule and its defense as an independent state as it is taught in our schools is completely misrepresentative? Or are we talking about basic literacy here?

Why don’t we explain for instance that communalism in India and Pakistan was a result of our British colonisers?

Interestingly, for all Huma’s efforts to steer this conversation in a certain logical direction, we are all exercising our *yes, that special word* freedom to steer the conversation in haphazard directions, as we please! I for one am certainly guilty, sorry Huma!

Hello!

First off I think Pakistan has come a long way and there is much progress to be proud of.

That being said, I also think our inability to separate religion from politics is the main reason behind a lot of our problems and struggles as a nation today.

Our Delayed or No Justice system has resulted in all the major problems we are facing today. The people of Swat opted for Shariah because they wanted a quick justice system. All the blame for the situation goes to our government for denying justice to our masses. We blame the Taliban but we should also blame the feudal politicians and British-era inspired bureaucrats for our current problems.

We see rampant corruption in our society and are we going to blame the common people for it? Why we don’t come out like the Long March when our sisters and brother are sent to Guantanamo Bay? Are we that impotent that we can not save our sister Aafia from repeatedly being molested in US jails and then labeled as insane?

We are quiet today when it is happening to others but we start crying when it starts happening to us. The media is playing a positive role by highlighting the issues but until masses take actions based on those news, nothing is going to change. We will continue to go down in the history and our children will be ashamed of us.

Lets start raising our voice against a minute injustice done to anyone in our society and make sure we stand out as one true Pakistani nation!

Umair if were picking and choosing – then yes were free(er) in comparison to those specifics.

However in Pakistan, people get picked up and go missing for years, robbing them, their families and friends of their basic rights – they too don’t see light of day again either – would you call that freedom?

And that’s just one example.

Ather. Bingo!
That’s very very true.

Yup I agree as well, with Nosheen. If we see our political structure, it’s basically family based. Its either a ex-party leaders chacha or mamoo or beta that we see every four years from the same party. And personally I don’t see any ‘non-relative’ (if that’s a word) in power in the near future.

If even one of the above has good parenting and social and moral values, we might have ourselves a leader.

Ali K:

While women should also share the blame for Pakistan’s rotten condition, are you seriously implying that all the statistics and concrete FACTS that prove that women are undermined, battered and denied their rights in this Godforsaken “Land of the Pure”. I, for one, don’t see any “Mukhtar Bhai” case where a man was gang-raped by “oppressors of the worst kind” sprouting up?

The superficial death of feminism is not just a Pakistani headache; this issue still riddles societies across the globe:

Listen to what Isabel Allende has to say about it:

http://www.ted.com/talks/lang/eng/isabel_allende_tells_tales_of_passion.html

Huma: And hallejulah to that freedom in Swat. Now hopefully we’ll do something about the other nuts running around this country trying to make redundant any notion of freedom.

I think Nosheen is right, character is built from an early age with familial structure and upbringing paramount. Mothers need to play a more proactive role, but they can only do so if they themselves are educated.

However, the people I talk about have educated mothers, are educated themselves and their own family members, including their sisters are fairly liberal. YET, when it comes to their spouses, they want subservient women that stay at home that can be bossed around and that are, most importantly, virgins.

This level of hypocrisy is astounding. This is what they aspire to, openly- gushing at the possibility. This is the freedom they have seen others exercise and this is the sort of freedom they espouse. Is it society that instills this mindset? mothers? fathers? male bonding?

Whatever it is, it needs reversing and fast. Thankfully this only comprises a minority of our educated lot (at least I hope its a minority).

@AliK: My friend men have been ruling Pakistan for 62 minus Benazir Butto era. Even then, men had the upper hand. As a matter of fact men pretty much rule the entire world. And the world is in a sorry state.

A ‘freedom’ subject to the ‘higher glory’ of any ideology, religion or whatever, is simply a contradiction in terms. As of now, I find that even migratory birds still have more freedom than what most Pakistanis do and I’m not surprised because I can clearly see that the birds achieve that freedom through communal cooperation and articulation.

@ Ali – that was a response to Talha’s question – I didn’t mean that literally.

You’re right to an extent: women do need to recognize there own rights. But what I’m pointing at is ‘conditioning’ how families/parents and society condition us.

Nadeem – ditto!

T. Wein. I agree with you hundred percent. Justice should be established considering the situation of Pakistani women.

Wish this 62nd birthday bring us more peace and understanding of our being a free nation. Wish this will be a new start of enlightenment for our suffering people. Wish we care for humanity than religious bigotry. and I wish we feel and act as one nation.

Happy Independence Day to all!

Nosheen, compared to life in a country like Iran where you’re constantly dogged by secret police, you can be arrested for taking photographs or talking on the phone about politics, then subsequently locked up never to see the light of day again, Pakistan is pretty much free. Compared to China where the cencorship laws are so strict that this blog wouldnt wouldnt be accessible from your computer, we certainly are free.

What do you do in a nation where the headline news in our paper today is — Swat celebrate “freedom from militancy”!!!!

Huma:

Nosheen is right about effecting change at the most basic level. Revolutions are sparked by ideas, and our parents play a key role in moulding our perception of the world. For instance, my Mother inculcated in me a fierce and unrelentingly respectful demeanour towards all women/girls.

So, yes, to get the ball rolling, we need everyone on board. When families take up their responsibilites (by all means, allow your children the space to think and grow and be independent-minded) and become proactive, only then can our the (mental/behavioural/political/radical/sectarian) ailments of our larger ‘Pakistani family’ be remedied.

Yeah independence is key for sure, Huma – but till the time there is independence, instilling more equal values in terms of gender roles would be helpful when it comes to how parents bring up their children; instead of bloating their sons’ ego no end.

Huma,

I think Nosheen is right. And yes, a difference on familial level can make a difference on national level of course. Parents, especially in the backward areas need to know this. Special attention should be paid towards the freedom of Pakistani women on all levels as they make up more than 50% of our population. Unless we do not grant them freedom and provide motivation to come forward, we can consider our nation half paralyzed and therefore way beyond the international standards of progress and prosperity.

Bring women up front.

Only in Pakistan does a minister have the freedom to carjack a vehicle and then drive around that very city in your car – now filled with armed guards – without any shame.

Huma, we’ve seen what a bit too much freedom can do to our youth as well. Freedom in what sense though? Choice of educational field, choice of marriage partner or freedom in the sense as the world is your oyster and we’ve got your back? There are far too many children taking advantage of that in the wrong way.

Democracy is over-rated:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1582573/What-use-is-democracy-to-idyllic-Bhutan.html

What Pakistan really needs is “good” (in both the moral and administrative sense) and responsible governance.

We need our version of the Obama Administration.

Talha, its true, anyone with anything resembling a vehicle is free to drive on our roads. Anyone with any kind of special relation/name/power is allowed to get a ‘free pass’ when and if stopped on the streets.

Nosheen,

Since when do new-born babies have mindsets? And why is it that you solely blame men for all the problems in the country? Women are often the chief oppressors of their own kind.

Its unfortunate that many Pakistanis do not understand how it likes to be in a minority in this country. There are many who never condemn hate crimes against religious minorities, and then there are those who do not accept there are any. However, I thank Dawn, all its columnists and everyone out there who is still discussing horrifying crimes committed in Gojra at the start of this month.

@ Ather, I disagree. What is the nation if not the masses? Are these loans going to clothe or feed the poor or are they going to provide them shelter? What good is a loan when it comes with conditions which make squeeze the life out of the common man, which forces otherwise decent citizens to take on corrupt practices?

Self sufficiency is key. We need to be at least be self sufficient in food production. We also need a serious change in our lifestyles and outlook on life. I recently found out that Pakistan is one of the world’s largest producers of Spirulina (a form of algae) which is huge with health/nutrition buffs as it is the most nutritious ’super food’ in terms of protein content, in the world. Yet most of us are unaware.

Food, electricity, gas etc. basic stuff for which we shouldn’t have to beg the international community. Our ’show off’ culture is unsustainable and shallow. It is the imperative of the elite to show some decency and live modestly, in accordance with the rest of the country. Freedom does not separate one from responsibility. Freedom of speech does not mean you can go out and verbally abuse someone and expect people to protect your right to free speech. Similarly, all forms of freedom come with responsibilities attached. Ignore them at your own peril.

@Nosheen. Parents!? I wonder if it would make a difference if they did give their children a bit more freedom — to make life choices, etc. Could a change on a familial level make any difference on the national level?

We can’t really take out the terrorists all by ourselves. We need the government’s co-operation and back up.

Shams,

I cant help but agree with how you put it – everyone will try to exercise/mould laws according to their needs and extent of power.

Is it the lack of freedom of our minds then?

Happy Pakistan making today.

But I need to say that no nation, as far as I understand the notion of pure freedom, is freer than Pakistanis. They do everything and can do everything which one can think of. Not only in a positive sense but also in a negative sense. And somehow we take pride in our being absolutely free. People from the West are positively horrified by our level of freedom which of course their democracy cannot grant them. You know, breaking signals, jumping off walls, sleeping in the office, and having a fun day when cars drown during monsoon. And government officials turn a blind eye.

But highest level of freedom may be observed during the night of 14th August when boys and men flung their bikes and cars on the beach and across the streets; street walking men and women fend for themselves; early next morning one can hear our President talk about good freedom and the role of PPP in all this!

Lets just try to analyze countries whose people think that they are ‘free’.

USA: ‘Its a free country.’ That what I hear all the time.
One can sue for pretty much anything, provided that one has a good lawyer. I suppose that’s how they think its free.

UK: You can get sued again!

So I suppose freedom has a vital component of JUSTICE and the ability to filter out just and the unjust.

Abhi garaani e shab main kami nahi ayi
Najaat e deeda e dil ki ghari nahi ayi
Chalay chalo k who manzil abhi nahi ayi

Keep marching, we are not there, yet

(Faiz)

For one: Parents! they need to change the mind set of their sons as SOON as their born.

I think it’s hard to find that direction when we are so fragmented. No doubt there are many amongst us who are socially and politically aware – but what are we doing with that awareness? But like Ather said, good education plays a very important role in all this and I believe it’s very hard to reach out for more if there are hundreds of girls still barred from going to school while thousands have no means to provide for school.

Concerning what Sana Rasul says: People who rely upon a government to dish out freedom will simply end up corrupting the government.

Oh, by the way, in Pakistan we have a form of freedom that is not even available in the west! Yes, thats right, we can openly brag about our various illegal escapades and be applauded for our efforts. Such feats are unlikely to be applauded in the western world where law breakers prefer to be discreet, lest they become accountable for their deeds!

Yes sirree, some of our more distinguished brethren are completely free from accountability, while many others believe the same applies to them, condemnation is usually frowned upon!

Speaking of rights of women, how can women achieve freedom when educated men, many of whom have become lawyers (reminiscing about my year at LUMS here) openly talk about marrying ’shareef’ women from their villages and shackling them up at home while they themselves continue to enjoy favorable client status at local brothels!? The feudal mindset supersedes even those fortunate to gain a decent education. What is one to do about that?

In my opinion, Pakistanis are as free as any animal in a jungle. They (rich or poor) do whatever they want to the extent of their capacity, strength, social and wealth status. Pakistanis are free to demand bribe, capture anybody’s land if he/she is powerful enough and so many other free will acts like in any jungle.

@Talha: Yeah but these organization cater to the nations immediate needs without which a collapse is pretty much imminent.

I suppose if you are borrowing money from someone he has every right to lend it to you at his terms. After all they are not charitable organizations!

And considering the principals of Game theory – most specifically the Nash equilibrium – its an ideal win-win situation for both parties.

Huma, reconciliation, or finding a balance between these two competing ideals is what a modern society must decide for itself. In my mind, there must be some obstacles to some to ensure greater opportunity for others. Otherwise, a society allows for unadulterated domination by those in power, creating social unrest and animosity.

Education is key to anyone properly exercising freedom of opportunity. Without it, no one is able to achieve their own potential.

The problem, as I see it, is that we’ve got the basic structures, but we haven’t quite figured out yet, at the level of the state, where the locus of power should lie – with democratic institutions or bureaucratic-military ones, and within the civilian domain, with the president or parliament.

So as long as we’re contesting the basics of how to organise the state, the state can’t really be of much use in helping her people develop and get on with their lives.

It can do it with pockets of people, some of the people some of the time, but not systematically and systemically.

Going back on some of these comments, many of you are thinking about freedom as economic freedom — no poverty, the right to work, the right to deal with no corruption, the freedom from IMF loans etc….

Would that be the first step? To be economically self-sufficent? As individuals and as a nation?

Yasser, thank you from bringing religion into this debate. If there is one thing we as a society are not free from today, it is religion. And I don’t mean that in a religion is the opium of the masses way (well not entirely) but more in that a lot of people seem boxed in by religion when thinking about Pakistani society or state.

Hate is preached, and we believe in lies and propaganda more than in Allah.

The result: The present mess.

Solution: None until the first two problems mentioned above are addressed.

Your absolutely right Shyema. There are many divisions – but when it comes to our state laws we perhaps all come under the same banner. Some of which include the divorce law.

The word freedom has different meanings for different people. For some we are free and for some we still are struggling with it.

Over the last three decades there is a mullah sitting inside the minds of majority of the people who are hungry for more and more power at any cost and and want to cut down the freedom of others.

Yeah, never a dull moment Nosheen! There’s just so much work to be done that everything is so exciting. You can literally, not just see, but build entire institutes and systems up from scratch.

When we’re talking about freedom, lets not forget the role of international lending organizations like the IMF, WB and ADB. Their main objective is not the development of Pakistan as advertised. They must protect their investments and thus pressure the government to take up measures that will ensure they are repaid. With a meek Government, we are virtually slaves to the whims of these institutes with subsidies becoming an endangered species and inflation bloating without digesting much cake.

Some people do wonder, quite openly at that, whether it wouldn’t be better for us to default? Would that make us more free? After all, with our Nuclear arsenal, its not that simple for the International community to shun us.

Yes Talha, you are absolutely right. Nations have indeed ventured into space (although no nation has exactly been able to reach the sky). We need to aim for a higher purpose.
Perhaps, our new generation can help us achieve our goals?

The T20 world championship claimed by our cricketers is only a little example of how much talent we really possess. How many times have our people shocked the world by re-surfacing from the toughest of times when the world had thought we were a nation no more?

Pakistanis just need to be more politically and socially aware of their responsibilities so that they can come forward and help the cause.

I’m sure not even a single Pakistani would hesitate to fight with his life for the independence so hard earned. The Quaid would be proud of his nation. We just need a direction – and another Quaid perhaps?

I think freedom comes from ones ability to think, question and reason. Such a form of freedom can only be achieved if good education is conveniently available to all.

I’d like to put together a few comments here:

Jesse is saying freedom can be positive (self-realization opportunities abound) or negative (freedom from obstacles).

Cyril: you’re talking about fiscal time bombs, you seem to be thinking in terms of the ‘negative’ freedom –

Saba: you’re talking about the freedom to be who you are — positive.

Is there a chance on reaching a consensus which of these means “freedom”? Or reconciling the two?

Nosheen is absolutely right.

Our women are treated as second-class citizens; Pakistan’s sitting Minister of Education said that he believes that the burying alive of women in Balochistan was in line with Baloch/honour traditions, and so, should not be condemned (@@(*!!@##>> ????). What is that all about?

Does he not have daughters? Did he not enter this world via his Mother’s womb? Why must our politician and mindsets be so characteristic of medieval times? The world has moved on, and even Allah – in whose name this “Islamic” Republic was sired – won’t be able to save our souls should we continue to maltreat our sisters, daughter and mothers; allow their rapists to run scot-free on bail. We should move with the times, too.

Balochistan ?

Salaam-vallekom,

I think we the people should ask all our politicians to take an oath to uphold democracy and work for the economic development of the state, How long can we live off IMF and “friends of pakistan”? I think we should take tips from India regarding economic development and higher education.

Inshallah,..

62 years of misery, corruption, mismanagement, inept leadership and God know’s what else have brought this state to brink of chaos and asking this question is probably not right. I think this nation state was based on faith of Islam, or as my elders told me then question should be: are we Muslim in heart? Every single evil haunting pakistan is originated from the lack of understanding with principles of Islam. Enough said.

Nosheen, even with women, there are lots of divisions. There are the likes of us, educated and working out of our freewill and then there are those who don’t have the means or liberty to even receive basic education and hence have absolutely no way to debate or even learn about the essence of actual freedom.

Freedom means that people are able to exercise their basic human rights – that laws exist to protect as opposed to further exploit people (minorities, women, children), that governing bodies and forces protect and not harm people. That corruption doesn’t exist in every strata of our lives.

That there is freedom of speech (which many will argue exists to a large extent – and yes we have come a long way… but still not there yet)…

Also on a slightly different tangent – as Pakistani’s we don’t have the freedom to travel with ease. That’s a huge freedom we’ve been robbed of.

First of all, Happy Independence Day everyone!

Shayan, I think giving the freedom for anyone to define happiness for themselves at the risk of harming others is problematic, and may require state interference (arguably some people’s happiness was manifested in horrific events like the Gojra massacres).

We are not free. We are slaves to a number of “social systems” (for lack of a better term) that dictate how we lead our lives, who we answer to, and essentially, what we can and cannot do, at certain very basic levels. The day when disenfranchised members of our society (who include all women, homosexuals, and almost anyone not a member of the elite subset of the population) can confidently say that they do not feel unsafe or restricted from participating in and contributing to any public sphere of life in Pakistan–then maybe we can talk.

Huma,

you nailed it with the Rich Punjabi man reference. Then again, why Punjabi? Anyone of means in Pakistan, with the right contacts is at liberty to do more than he would be even in the west.

Its one part funny and nine parts tragic when I came to Pakistan and saw educated young professionals wasting away their lives while on drugs and booze. They have freedoms that are otherwise termed illegal by our lawmakers (who themselves feel free to indulge in their very own law breaking- of course its perfectly legal for them to do so). Yet, someone has quite rightly pointed out- much of our populace doesn’t have the access and thus freedom to education, health and economic prosperity. The dichotomy is quite stark, reminds me of Rio where the lovely high rise buildings rise mightily in the wake of an enormous shanty town.

What is freedom? Is it negative freedom — the freedom from obstacles, or is it positive freedom — the freedom of self-realization. In light of the exceptional poverty within Pakistan, how much real opportunity exists? What are the obstacles to justice? These are questions with which every nation must grapple, but it takes on additional importance to Pakistan considering how these issues are being actively exploited by extremists (precisely b/c a wealthy landowner/industrialist has too much “freedom”).

Terrorism, national or international, within our boundaries, is the first and foremost issue the government of Pakistan has to address if we want to come out of the shackles of poverty and therefore lack of freedom.

Hhaha Talha “never a dull moment” out look eh?

Yeah i think ones socio economic background plays a HUGE role in terms of how much freedom one has. Huma your absolutely right about the Punjabi mill owner example- thats just one of them!

I also agree with Sana Rasul too though- theres immense and sometimes inimitable talent in Pakistan – but still cant ignore the fact that there is equally a lot of injustice ( on so many levels)

By far though- i think women on a mass scale have the least freedom.

All individual liberties come with corresponding duties on others in society. My freedom of speech imposes a duty on others to respect everything I say or write. A free society would ensure that liberties and duties are distributed fairly. Which is why France of Marie Antoinette would not be considered free even though Marie and Louis XVI had unlimited freedoms. Perhaps, the Punjabi mill owner is not quite analogous to Louis XVI but you get the gist.

Assalaam-0-alikum and
Happy Independence day to all!

Good to see dawn writers TRYING to start a conversation!:)

First of all I think, we as individuals have to define freedom?

Is it the liberty to do anything or the freedom to do whats right!

Considering our institutional structure I think its …… our current definition of freedom itself is the ability to do anything and I mean ANYTHING!
Consequently, we as Pakistanis are free as anyone!!!! But that doesn’t make it right!

I totally agree Huma, that’s exactly what I meant. There are a handful who are free to do absolutely anything they want.

Free? Freedom to or freedom from?

Poor, illiterate, population climbing steadily, a chronically fiscally challenged state – it’s a time bomb.

Sana,

Nations have ventured into space, so the Sky really shouldn’t be our limit. Lets aspire for even greater things!

It’s more than pursuing happiness. Basic pursuits, such as those for education are still such a challenge for so many. Unfortunately I feel those with more resources/power have more of an opportunity to exercise this freedom… but going over to the masses we have, especially in our rural areas, I feel terms such as freedom, rights and independence still need to be driven home.

Happy Birthday Pakistan!

While we may have won freedom from external forces (Colonials, BJP type radical Indians), we are still very much slaves to internal conflicts. I cast an envious glance across at our larger twin and its ability to defeat feudalism while in its infancy and whose army has managed to stick to its prescribed duty (albeit the difficulty in forcibly controlling a country of such a large population and land mass).

Ironically it is events perpetrated against Muslims in Gujrat that are of an eerily similar nature to those unfortunate events that occurred in Gojra (similar names, I know) recently, that make us thankful for the creation of Pakistan in the first place.

While created to safeguard the interests of the Muslims of British India, Pakistan has only really managed to safeguard the interests of its ruling elite and its feudal lords. National integration remains elusive with educational institutes categorically failing to ingrain any form of national unity despite doctored text books.

Gloomy picture, yeah! But then again, if things were all rosy, we wouldn’t have all that much to do. Interesting times ahead.

Nosheen, Shayan and Shyema, wouldn’t you guys say that, for example, a wealthy, land and mill-owning Punjabi man is pretty much free to do as he wants in this country (in fact, perhaps a bit too free)?

It is quite understandable that at the moment, our nation is feeling very pessimistic about the future, but we need to know that we, as a people, are one of the strongest nations in the world. We have produced great men and women in sports, education even politics. No matter how many obstacles and roadblocks we have to face on our way to total freedom and prosperity, I believe that Pakistanis, provided the proper education and awareness, will overcome anything and everything. Sky – is our limit!

Happy Independence Day! Quite true Nosheen, when exercising our freewill often becomes a challenge, one has no choice but to question if we really are independent.

Freedom? It’s the ability of each individual to define and pursue happiness without undue interference from the majority or the state.

No, I don’t think we’re free yet.

Hi Nosheen, thanks for joining us. I agree with you that we’re geographically free. But why would you say that the lives of the people within the boundaries are not free. Is no one at all free?

Happy Independence Day to everyone!

Its strange saying that considering my next comment- i think we have borders to demarcate our land, so geographically we may be free (even though that too is debatable) but the lives of the people within the boundaries are certainly in my opinion not free.